# Al Gore warns us about Bush **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 13, 2004, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924 "2004-07-13T17:06:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/41 "2004-07-13T22:13:21Z")
Thank you from me too Liberal. Of course you’re right, the issue of liberty and freedom is far more important than how long he stayed at a school. I just say again that for future historians, all aspects of this administration will be examined, the big things and the small things. Everything should be catalogued and discussed. I wish this Al Gore had ran for President. He seems to be at his best when he’s indignant. Here’s a video of the speech. There are some things that are left out of the printed text. [http://nmmstream.net:8080/ramgen/acs/240604/gore.rm](http://nmmstream.net:8080/ramgen/acs/240604/gore.rm) ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/42 "2004-07-13T22:56:03Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally Posted by Liberal_ > > when a man can be imprisoned at the whim of George W. Mussolini, and his original property — his body and his mind — tortured until he is crippled and hysterical if not dead, then whatever else he might own is of no use except to the vultures who destroyed him. That’s an excellent point, but I must most respectfully and fervently disagree. The will of our settlers was not broken under harsh privation or the pain of starvation or solitude. The will was not broken by the yoke of oppression or the whip of rule, where the lives of our people were destroyed, where our citizens were deprived of trial by jury, where the salaries of our very judges were little more than the alms of a tyrant. The American Will was not broken even when our Fathers were “forced to bear arms against their country, to become the executioners of friends and brethren.” Did not our founders petition for redress, and ultimately strike out against the persecution? The hearts of our people are strong, for, despite centuries of torture and rape, murder and incarceration, open warfare, stultification, marginalization and confinement on soil that belongs to no man, the Will of our First Fathers lives on. It lives in my blood, Liberal, as it does in yours. This is the Spirit that is endowed by our Creator, a Spirit that is nourished daily by the strength of this great Land. Nothing can take that away. Yours, El Cid ---
**Author:** ![wring](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/838e76/32.png) [@wring](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wring)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/43 "2004-07-13T22:57:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > . I haven’t seen anything discussed about our loss of liberty except by me, and I have been criticized for it. due respect and all, but - I recall lots of discussion wrt the detainees in Gitmo, being concerned that we weren’t allowed to know anything about them, numbers, ages, places of origin etc. I recall lots of discussion wrt those who were detained right after 9/11, held w/o charges, lawyers, notice to families. I recall lots of discussion wrt Padilla (sp?) . I recall specifically mentioning “US citizen arrested on US Soil, held w/o charges, w/o access to attorney etc etc etc” and was asked for proof, provided same and was met w/a shrug, “oh well, one guy, probably a bad guy to boot” we were met w/resounding choruses of "but this situation is different, we’re dealing with _terrorists_ and _bad guys, like Saddam_, we were accused of being naive, supporters of tyranny and torture, treasonous and ‘stoopid’. Sorry, but you’ve come late to the party, **Lib** , glad to have you on board and all, but there were many of us way back when who were concerned about the way things were headed, and got literally shouted down. So, please, if you would, realize that you’re **not** in fact, the first to be concerned about liberty and justice for all. We noted the rule of law went away w/o a murmer. We protested the Patriot Act, we were worried to the max about statements that detainees weren’t to be afforded Geneva status, they were ‘enemy combatants’, we voiced concern about the legalities of all this way back when it was happening. and were shouted down. NOw, SCOTUS has issued their ruling that Gitmo folks are to be heard and have access to lawyers, and the administration’s response is to set up the military tribunals. So, no, you weren’t the first to note the errosion of our hard fought liberties. (not claiming to be the first, either, of course) ---
**Author:** ![Legolamb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4491bb/32.png) [@Legolamb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Legolamb)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/44 "2004-07-13T23:45:05Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I have to say that I am going to have to bite the bullet once and for all and make the decision to vote for Kerry, and I encourage all those who cherish freedom to do the same. Good to see you’re finally coming around **Lib** 😉 There is only one way to bring about change, to improve the American people’s freedoms and it’s standing in the world today. I’m sure no candidate can give us the required change immediately, so whilst Kerry may not be the ideal choice of many, progress has to start somewhere. As for that speech, that’ll have to wait for tomorrow for me. It sounds like it is worth reading though. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2004, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/45 "2004-07-13T23:51:53Z")
> [@](#): > > I cannot recall when I haven’t been derided as that loon who preaches about individual liberty and the dangers of tyranny. I don’t recall ever referring to you as a loon; you do strike me as a bit eccentric and certainly given to florid language, but those aren’t crimes in my book. > [@](#): > > How can it now be that I am yanking chains by doing what I have always done? Is it because it is Al Gore and not Harry Browne who made the speech? Is it unbelievable that I would give credit where credit is due? Glad you’ve suddenly discovered the magnitude of what this administration has been doing to the country and all, but I guess I’m a bit grumpy 'cause this is all stuff I knew a long time ago, and it sure didn’t take a speech from Al Gore to have it all fall into place for me. > [@](#): > > If Al Gore has become a champion for freedom, then I have become a champion for Al Gore. Yeah, well, great, but he’s not running for Prez this year. Anyway, sorry for my near-total lack of enthusiasm; I’ll shut up and leave y’all to it. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/46 "2004-07-14T00:51:31Z")
Welcome aboard, **Lib**. I’m happy to see you putting that formidable mind of yours to good use in the fight against tyranny. Sorry for my prior posts in which I seem to have anticipated your decision. But then, I’ve been getting wrong ideas about you ever since 1999, haven’t I? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/47 "2004-07-14T00:56:47Z")
I, for one, am curious to know how Al Gore defines “anyone,” because it sure doesn’t seem to jive with what Webster says… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/48 "2004-07-14T00:57:35Z")
Libertarians back Kerry! Nation shudders in political paroxysm as Libertarian Party throws full support! Candidate Whats-his-face withdraws from race! Film at 11! (Anti-Vivisection League still undecided…) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/49 "2004-07-14T01:09:16Z")
I don’t mean to rain on anybody’s epiphany, but for some reason this makes me envision someone repeatedly bashing his head against a brick wall, only to stand in amazement as a brick in an adjacent wall suddenly falls free of its own accord. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/50 "2004-07-14T01:21:36Z")
I can’t tell you how tickled I am that Al Gore uses Jon Stewart as a cite. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/51 "2004-07-14T01:40:45Z")
Good on you, **Liberal** , and congratulations on your (late-ish) epiphany. It’s always great to see someone take a firm stand on things like this, whether it’s you or Gore. It’s been said before, but some of us have been concerned about this kind of thing for years. I guess the threads about Bush falling off his bike drowned this stuff out though. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/52 "2004-07-14T01:49:41Z")
Sorry - I just realized that this was the same speech that Gore gave quite some time ago, the speech for which Gore was lambasted for using the phrase “digital Brown Shirts.” I’m sorry to say that I did not read it at the time. It is a very good speech, despite the comparison to Nazis. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/53 "2004-07-14T05:34:48Z")
**Liberal** , my hat’s off to you for taking a stand based on your principles. I’m impressed. Too many (and this bloody well goes for both sides in the US political debate) get caught up in the team spirit - to the point where they will fabricate the most intricate excuses so as to be able to still root for the home team with something resembling a clean conscience. (As a countryman of mine once put it:“People appear to buy their political opinions in matched assortments, like furniture.”) It would be sort of interesting if GWB’s presidency turned out to be a catalyst for change in US politics, no ? ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 7:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/54 "2004-07-14T07:18:25Z")
For people who have been paying attention, which sadly didn’t include me, Gore has been at this for a while. From a speech he made **November 9, 2003** > [@](#): > > [FREEDOM AND SECURITY](http://www.moveon.org/gore/speech.html) > > (excerpt) > > For my part, I’m just a “recovering politician” – but I truly believe that some of the issues most important to America’s future are ones that all of us should be dealing with. > > And perhaps the most important of these issues is the one I want to talk about today: the true relationship between Freedom and Security. > > So it seems to me that the logical place to start the discussion is with an accounting of exactly what has happened to civil liberties and security since the vicious attacks against America of September 11, 2001 – and it’s important to note at the outset that the Administration and the Congress have brought about many beneficial and needed improvements to make law enforcement and intelligence community efforts more effective against potential terrorists. > > But a lot of other changes have taken place that a lot of people don’t know about and that come as unwelcome surprises. For example, for the first time in our history, American citizens have been seized by the executive branch of government and put in prison without being charged with a crime, without having the right to a trial, without being able to see a lawyer, and without even being able to contact their families. > > President Bush is claiming the unilateral right to do that to any American citizen he believes is an “enemy combatant.” Those are the magic words. If the President alone decides that those two words accurately describe someone, then that person can be immediately locked up and held incommunicado for as long as the President wants, with no court having the right to determine whether the facts actually justify his imprisonment. > > Now if the President makes a mistake, or is given faulty information by somebody working for him, and locks up the wrong person, then it’s almost impossible for that person to prove his innocence – because he can’t talk to a lawyer or his family or anyone else and he doesn’t even have the right to know what specific crime he is accused of committing. So a constitutional right to liberty and the pursuit of happiness that we used to think of in an old-fashioned way as “inalienable” can now be instantly stripped from any American by the President with no meaningful review by any other branch of government. > > How do we feel about that? Is that OK? > > Here’s another recent change in our civil liberties: Now, if it wants to, the federal government has the right to monitor every website you go to on the internet, keep a list of everyone you send email to or receive email from and everyone who you call on the telephone or who calls you – and they don’t even have to show probable cause that you’ve done anything wrong. Nor do they ever have to report to any court on what they’re doing with the information. Moreover, there are precious few safeguards to keep them from reading the content of all your email. > > Everybody fine with that? > > If so, what about this next change? > > For America’s first 212 years, it used to be that if the police wanted to search your house, they had to be able to convince an independent judge to give them a search warrant and then (with rare exceptions) they had to go bang on your door and yell, “Open up!” Then, if you didn’t quickly open up, they could knock the door down. Also, if they seized anything, they had to leave a list explaining what they had taken. That way, if it was all a terrible mistake (as it sometimes is) you could go and get your stuff back. > > But that’s all changed now. Starting two years ago, federal agents were given broad new statutory authority by the Patriot Act to “sneak and peak” in non-terrorism cases. They can secretly enter your home with no warning – whether you are there or not – and they can wait for months before telling you they were there. And it doesn’t have to have any relationship to terrorism whatsoever. It applies to any garden-variety crime. And the new law makes it very easy to get around the need for a traditional warrant – simply by saying that searching your house might have some connection (even a remote one) to the investigation of some agent of a foreign power. Then they can go to another court, a secret court, that more or less has to give them a warrant whenever they ask. > > Three weeks ago, in a speech at FBI Headquarters, President Bush went even further and formally proposed that the Attorney General be allowed to authorize subpoenas by administrative order, without the need for a warrant from any court. > > What about the right to consult a lawyer if you’re arrested? Is that important? > > Attorney General Ashcroft has issued regulations authorizing the secret monitoring of attorney-client conversations on his say-so alone; bypassing procedures for obtaining prior judicial review for such monitoring in the rare instances when it was permitted in the past. Now, whoever is in custody has to assume that the government is always listening to consultations between them and their lawyers. > > Does it matter if the government listens in on everything you say to your lawyer? > > Is that Ok? > > Or, to take another change – and thanks to the librarians, more people know about this one – the FBI now has the right to go into any library and ask for the records of everybody who has used the library and get a list of who is reading what. Similarly, the FBI can demand all the records of banks, colleges, hotels, hospitals, credit-card companies, and many more kinds of companies. And these changes are only the beginning. Just last week, Attorney General Ashcroft issued brand new guidelines permitting FBI agents to run credit checks and background checks and gather other information about anyone who is “of investigatory interest,” - meaning anyone the agent thinks is suspicious - without any evidence of criminal behavior. > > So, is that fine with everyone? ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/55 "2004-07-14T15:42:47Z")
> [@](#): > > Due respect to you people, but What. The. Fuck? I cannot recall when I haven’t been derided as that loon who preaches about individual liberty and the dangers of tyranny. Due respect to you, **libertarian** , but when somebody who uses “liberal” as an insult and even goes so far to change his name to deride people who believe as I do suddenly calls Al Gore a hero, my bullshit detector starts clicking like a Geiger counter in Chernobyl. Perhaps it’s a testament to how low the level of political discord has sunk, or perhaps it’s what happens when you’ve been called a traitor for the last two years for pointing out stuff like that. In any case, I’ll proceed with the assumption that you are sincere until there is evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/56 "2004-07-14T15:55:48Z")
I’ve explained many times now why I took on the name. As far as the “people who believe as I do” part, a person who believes in liberty for all people (including wealthy ones) is a liberal. Liberty. Liberal. Same same. As I said already, I doubt that I will always agree with Mr. Gore. When he starts his leftist nonsense about taking things away from people for the common good, I’ll rip him up for that. Meanwhile, like you, I’ll proceed on the assumption of sincerity barring proof otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Gest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9d8465/32.png) [@Gest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gest)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/57 "2004-07-14T16:42:15Z")
> [@grienspace](#): > > I predict Kerry in a landslide! The problem is that I only hear non-Americans say this. Maybe you and I and the vast bulk of the world outside America think there’s no way he an come back from the scandals and the fuckups. However, the rest of us don’t get a say in the matter and my fear is that you are projecting onto the American electorate your values and thought processes. No matter what you think of the men who end up as presidential candidates, the fact is that they know their countrymen and how to play to them. Hence the Tweedledum Tweedledee nature of the contenders. I **really** hope you know America better than Bush, his PR machine, pollsters, and advisors. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [July 14, 2004, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/58 "2004-07-14T17:02:23Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Jesus, my eyes glazed over after 3 paragraphs. A good 3 paragraphs though. If I may, I suggest you get a cup of coffee, then read the whole thing. This stuff is important. **Lib** , good call. Excellent link. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/59 "2004-07-16T02:30:01Z")
**Lib**. Your endorsement makes this old liberal’s heart glad. Thanks for the link. While you appear on the surface to be a loon, I know that you’re just being true to your core principles. 🙂 Boy, if I could only convince you this easily that you didn’t actually _hear_ the contestant on _The Newlywed Game_ say the words “up the butt, Bob” I’d consider my life complete and could die a happy fellow. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2004, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924/60 "2004-07-16T04:15:12Z")
I suggest that anyone who found Gore’s speech compelling read John Dean’s _Worse Than Watergate._ It outlines more of the abuses the Bush Administration has perpetrated on us, mostly in secret. I think John Dean is in a position to say when presidential misdeeds are worse than Nixon’s. Dean closes the book with a very scary picture of the extremes to which the administration are preparing to go in response to another terrorist attack. For instance, the Bush continuity of government plans seem to include the executive branch, but not the legislative or judicial. Scary, scary stuff. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-warns-us-about-bush/254924.md?page=4)