# Al Gore: Your carbon credit plan is a pyramid scheme. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276 "2007-03-02T05:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![guppy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7feea3/32.png) [@guppy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guppy)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/61 "2007-03-02T18:31:09Z")
I’m just curious at what point you people would give him a pass? Where is the line were people can advocate environmental issues? He is clearly taking some measures to reduce his carbon footprint, how much does he have to do before he’s allowed to be an advocate for this issue? I suspect that nothing short of perfection would satisfy some of his critics and then they would probably just call him a doo-doo head. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/62 "2007-03-02T18:43:45Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#): > > I’m just open to the argument that, given his beliefs, he could be doing more. And I think building an environmentally friendly home, especially a modest one that a middle class family could afford, could demonstrate how possible it is for all of us to live in a way that isn’t harmful or wasteful. I think that’s fair, and I said the same [over here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8314576&postcount=171). ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/63 "2007-03-02T18:44:38Z")
[QUOTE=Uncommon Sense] Pardon? If he uses less off the grid then he leaves more for others to purchase off that same grid. There is not an unlimited supply of green sourced energy. If everyone produced (some of) their own green source power then we could theoretically stretch the green grid further, no? [/QUOTE] I suppose in the extreme this is true, if everybody checked the green energy box we would run into problems of limited green resources. Currently we are not really near that point. We do find ourselves in the situation where renewable resources are underdeveloped, precisely because not enough people check the green energy box, Many states have implemented Renwable protfolio standards (RPS) theat require utilites to have a certain portion of their protfolio be renewable energy. This encourages develpment of green resources, but it is not driven by individuals necessarily asking for renewable power. I do believe that energy efficiency and reduced consumption is a good thing as well, don’t get me wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/64 "2007-03-02T19:38:14Z")
[QUOTE=Euthanasiast] That is correct, though I admit how the other could have been assumed. [/QUOTE] D’oh. Well, for what its worth, sorry about the confusion, although it was kinda funny. ---
**Author:** ![Raygun99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Raygun99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raygun99)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/65 "2007-03-02T19:40:02Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] I suppose in the extreme this is true, if everybody checked the green energy box we would run into problems of limited green resources. [/QUOTE] But then, the more demand there would be, the more people would build to take advantage of it, and the cheaper it will get through economies of scale. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/66 "2007-03-02T19:42:42Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] He _has_ money. It’s no hardship for him to spend an additional $5,000 a year to use green energy or pay to install solar panels. It would be a hardship for him to give up private planes, 4 furnaces, 4 A/C units, the gardener, and the caterer. That’s where my grumpiness comes from. [/QUOTE] Do you think that his gardener and caterer emit significant amounts of carbon? Apart from plane travel (and I’m still waiting for some number regarding how often he flies private planes), the rest is plenty green, in terms of the ecological impact you speak of. It sounds like you think it doesn’t matter unless it is hard for him, which is kind of a good point to come out of this - it doesn’t have to be all that hard. Ultimately, it may be that we cannot produce enough green power to meet the demands for it. Right now that is not the problem that industry faces, so while it may not be great, it is very good to have people like Gore putting their money where their mouth is and supporting green power producers in a big way. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/67 "2007-03-02T19:50:37Z")
I’m don’t care for Gore as a person, but I have little beef with him using the energy he does because he is putting a large effort into reducing global warming, increasing energy efficiency, etc. It’s not like his house means _anything_ in the grand scheme of things. I was a little shocked to see he didn’t even have CF lights until recently, but you know what? I can’t see well with CF light, so maybe he’s got the same problem, I don’t know. I would never want him as President, and I think on some issues he’s a mendacious SOB, but I think the criticism over his energy use is invalid and politically-driven. Even if he wasn’t buying a single, solitary kW of “green power.” It’s sort of like when someone said once “Una, you drive a car that gets 19mpg - why don’t you switch to a hybrid and get 44mpg?” and I said “Yeah, and I’m responsible for reducing hundreds of thousands of tons per year of carbon emissions through the analyses I’ve done which resulted in green capital and O&M improvements actually implemented at coal power plants.” A large part of my work, larger each year, is in renewable fuels. Although I could reduce my individual carbon footprint, the paid - and unpaid - work I do to reduce carbon on a large scale allows me to sleep just fine at night. ---
**Author:** ![Duke\_of\_Rat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Duke\_of\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duke_of_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/68 "2007-03-02T19:59:49Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] It’s not the energy consumption being mitigated by solar power, or green energy that I am speaking of. It’s the energy cost of _everything._ I work on houses that start at about 6000 sq ft, and go all the way up to 32,000 sq ft. (Yeah, we love the trickle down theory.) It’s not just the month to month energy costs. It’s the 4 furnaces, 4 A/C units, and the energy it took to manufacture, transport and install them. It’s the energy it took to manufacture and install the windows, even if they are energy efficient. It’s the 2 fridges to keep everything stocked. It’s the 3 dishwashers. It’s the cost to have guys have to come out and tend to the landscaping, the painters, the interior decorators, the handymen. These are ongoing costs, monetarily and energy wise. And this is just one of his three houses. (I think three.) My point is that he uses more energy, that he has a bigger ecological footprint. [/QUOTE] You know, I’ve seen the United States criticized for using a disproportionate amount of resources based on population. All we need now is a shitload of those carbon credit vouchers and we can all sing kum bay ah. ---
**Author:** ![Debaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3da27b/32.png) [@Debaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Debaser)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/69 "2007-03-02T20:28:39Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Maybe if a few people could step up and become the Jimmy Carter for green homes, Gore could continue to give extraordinary, above and beyond the call, effort to the issue of educating people about global warming. Sound good? [/QUOTE] Forgive me if someone already said this. I haven’t read the entire thread yet. Wired magazine seems to have taken on green homes as a bit of a pet project. Nearly every issue has something on the subject. There’s lots of groups out there doing varying kinds of green homes right now, and they all get written up in Wired. It’s very interesting some of the clever ideas that folks come up with. It’s also mostly low tech. Having the right set up of insulation and windows allowing in sunlight can make a very big difference for instance. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/70 "2007-03-02T20:30:33Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Do you think that his gardener and caterer emit significant amounts of carbon? Apart from plane travel (and I’m still waiting for some number regarding how often he flies private planes), the rest is plenty green, in terms of the ecological impact you speak of. It sounds like you think it doesn’t matter unless it is hard for him, which is kind of a good point to come out of this - it doesn’t have to be all that hard. Ultimately, it may be that we cannot produce enough green power to meet the demands for it. Right now that is not the problem that industry faces, so while it may not be great, it is very good to have people like Gore putting their money where their mouth is and supporting green power producers in a big way. [/QUOTE] What I am trying to say, however poorly I am getting my point across, is this. It is _not_ plenty green to have a 10,000 sq ft house. As one of your three residences. It just isn’t and nothing you can say is going to convince me otherwise. And for it being hard for him? Yes, I think it does have validity. If _you_ are going to ask _me_ to make an effort, then _you_ should be willing to make an effort, especially if _you_ are a spokesman stumping for conservation. $5,000 a year just doesn’t impress me. He spent more on his toilets. He spent more on his damn fridge. Not both of them, just one.\* The buying green energy is not a sacrifice, and as someone who supposedly leading the way on GW, I _do_ expect some sacrifice for the cause. Otherwise, why should I personally bother to do it myself? “Home to only about 6% of the world’s population, the region consumes 30% of the world’s energy” Rowntree pg 46 \*I did not work on his house, nor have I seen a breakdown on the costs. I am making an assumption on his appliances and toilets because I am very familiar with this type of housing, and this kind of homeowner. Please do not rip me a new one if you find some cite where he only spent $4900 on toilets. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/71 "2007-03-02T20:35:50Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] It is _not_ plenty green to have a 10,000 sq ft house. As one of your three residences. It just isn’t and nothing you can say is going to convince me otherwise. [/quote] Always nice to meet someone with an open mind. > [@](#): > > And for it being hard for him? Yes, I think it does have validity. If _you_ are going to ask _me_ to make an effort, then _you_ should be willing to make an effort, especially if _you_ are a spokesman stumping for conservation. What specific sacrifices has Al Gore asked you to make that he has not made himself? ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/72 "2007-03-02T20:36:51Z")
[QUOTE=Debaser] Forgive me if someone already said this. I haven’t read the entire thread yet. Wired magazine seems to have taken on green homes as a bit of a pet project. Nearly every issue has something on the subject. There’s lots of groups out there doing varying kinds of green homes right now, and they all get written up in Wired. It’s very interesting some of the clever ideas that folks come up with. It’s also mostly low tech. Having the right set up of insulation and windows allowing in sunlight can make a very big difference for instance. [/QUOTE] Builders are also taking steps to incorporate green building practices. [http://www.nahb.org/meeting\_details.aspx?meetingID=3249§ionID=121](http://www.nahb.org/meeting_details.aspx?meetingID=3249§ionID=121) ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/73 "2007-03-02T20:50:16Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Always nice to meet someone with an open mind. What specific sacrifices has Al Gore asked you to make that he has not made himself? [/QUOTE] Ok, I am coming from the point of working on these kinds of houses for the last 15 years. For my bread and butter, to keep the wolf from the door. I am very familiar with this type of homeowner, these kinds of houses. There is no way you are going to convince me that it is not conspicuous consumption. He probably spent more on imported french tile that was pissed on by authentic 3rd generation frenchmen, in his 8th bathroom, than you earned last year. So, if I am not overly impressed by his $5,000 he spent on green energy, can you see my point? As someone intimately involved with the building process—there is no way a 10,000 (although I think this particular house is 20,000) house is green. It can be _greener_ than a comparable house built with less efficient design and products, but it cannot be green. Honey, I am not even on Al Gore’s radar. But hey, I’ll give up all my private jet trips this year for my contribution to reduce GW. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/74 "2007-03-02T21:04:05Z")
Man, the 'Publicans are sure scared to death of Gore to start the smears this far in advance, aren’t they? ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/75 "2007-03-02T21:10:35Z")
[QUOTE=Raygun99] But then, the more demand there would be, the more people would build to take advantage of it, and the cheaper it will get through economies of scale. [/QUOTE] Well, yes and no, because generally green resources are deceloped in the most economic areas first and then as more and more are developed they are developed in less economical places. But there is definite economies to more demand for green power, also. As I said the more people who opt for green power the more that will be available for investment in it. Of course, we could never actually go completely green, since renewable energy is not responsive/dispatchable enough to meet the intertemporal profile of electricity demand across the grid. ---
**Author:** ![muttrox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a8b319/32.png) [@muttrox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/muttrox)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/76 "2007-03-02T21:17:32Z")
Al Gore balance sheet: On the minus side: He lives in big house. A couple of them. He takes planes. He uses much energy. He does a lot of stuff to minimize this, but comes nowhere near to driving it to zero. On the plus side: Um, only the most influential voice for enironmentalism and taking Global Warming seriously. Impossible to quantify, but has probably convinced tens of millions of people to change some of their behavior, and influenced governmental initiatives along the same lines. Seems like he’s wwwaaaaaayyy on the plus side to me. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/77 "2007-03-02T21:19:27Z")
[QUOTE=Gangster Octopus] Well, yes and no, because generally green resources are deceloped in the most economic areas first and then as more and more are developed they are developed in less economical places. But there is definite economies to more demand for green power, also. As I said the more people who opt for green power the more that will be available for investment in it. Of course, we could never actually go completely green, since renewable energy is not responsive/dispatchable enough to meet the intertemporal profile of electricity demand across the grid. [/QUOTE] Depends on whether we can convince the older Green groups that more and safer nuclear power should be part of the solution. As far as Global Warming goes, Nuclear power could help quite a bit. Even Coal can be cleaned up to the point where if clean coal replaced dirty coal we would see a large decrease in Green House Carbon. Maybe **Una** could talk about this some or point to one of her existing posts where she has in detail. I have become a broken record on this but there are many approaches that combined could allow us to overcome Global Warming in 50 years and actually bring us back down to lower levels within 100 years. We can do it with today’s technology and without killing the economy. Does it matter if many of us are not around to see the positive results? I think this is a worthwhile effort to give to future generations. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/78 "2007-03-02T21:19:38Z")
[QUOTE=vibrotronica] Man, the 'Publicans are sure scared to death of Gore to start the smears this far in advance, aren’t they? [/QUOTE] Sure are! It’s hilarious the way the people pitting Gore here ignored the same topic in GD where you have to deal with something trivial like facts. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/79 "2007-03-02T21:20:49Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] Ok, I am coming from the point of working on these kinds of houses for the last 15 years. For my bread and butter, to keep the wolf from the door. I am very familiar with this type of homeowner, these kinds of houses. There is no way you are going to convince me that it is not conspicuous consumption. He probably spent more on imported french tile that was pissed on by authentic 3rd generation frenchmen, in his 8th bathroom, than you earned last year. So, if I am not overly impressed by his $5,000 he spent on green energy, can you see my point? As someone intimately involved with the building process—there is no way a 10,000 (although I think this particular house is 20,000) house is green. It can be _greener_ than a comparable house built with less efficient design and products, but it cannot be green. [/quote] No, frankly, I can’t see your point. How does the type of tile used in Al Gore’s bathroom contribute to global warming? Does French piss contain unusal concentrations of CO2? Does money just automatically exude greenhouse gasses when gathered together in large amounts? > [@](#): > > Honey, I am not even on Al Gore’s radar. But hey, I’ll give up all my private jet trips this year for my contribution to reduce GW. Maybe you should pay more attention to your own posts, sugartits. You said: > [@](#): > > If you are going to ask me to make an effort, then you should be willing to make an effort, especially if you are a spokesman stumping for conservation. So, what effort has Al Gore asked _you_ to make, that he is not willing to make himself? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/80 "2007-03-02T21:24:52Z")
I’d be interested to know when Gore purchased it. If it was within the last 2-5 years, it would certainly make him more of a hypocrite than if he bought it 20 years ago. Short of tearing down his 10,000 sq. foot house, which would be wasteful, even if Gore sold his home tomorrow, someone else would presumably buy it. So the net positive impact on the environment would be nil. Of course, whether or not the messenger has sinned personally does not negate the message he is sending. We Americans do indeed consume too much energy, Al Gore included. If you don’t buy into the global warming argument, surely you can see that our presence in the Middle East is causing problems for the entire world. Personally I’ve been a proponent for strict environmental laws for no other reason than because I was taught that you should take care of your shit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276.md?page=5)