# Al Gore: Your carbon credit plan is a pyramid scheme. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276 "2007-03-02T05:20:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/101 "2007-03-03T00:15:00Z")
[QUOTE=T\_SQUARE] Out of curiosity, are you in energy consulting Una? [/QUOTE] Yes, generally from the producer (“evil”) side. **YWalker** (who I don’t think has been in this thread) is an expert in the consumer (“good”) side. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/102 "2007-03-03T00:17:52Z")
**Miller** - I guess we’ll just disagree on the issue of what Gore could have done to mitigate things, but agree that the “hypocrisy” is a very largely just political points-scoring? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/103 "2007-03-03T00:20:19Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Alright, I’ll cede the consumer goods issue. [/QUOTE] Be better for all concerned if you conceded it. God knows what the next guy would do with it. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/104 "2007-03-03T00:23:03Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] **Miller** - I guess we’ll just disagree on the issue of what Gore could have done to mitigate things, but agree that the “hypocrisy” is a very largely just political points-scoring? [/QUOTE] I think where we disagree isn’t so much “could have done” as “should have done.” Sure, Gore could have done things to limit the attacks on these fronts, but since I don’t think the attacks have any merit, I don’t think it’s fair to hold Gore responsible for being vulnerable to them. If he’s not doing anything wrong, the blame for the attack should go to the attacker, not the victim. Admittedly, your approach is the more practical. **Contra** : 😛 ---
**Author:** ![T\_SQUARE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@T\_SQUARE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/T_SQUARE)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/105 "2007-03-03T00:23:38Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] Yes, generally from the producer (“evil”) side. **YWalker** (who I don’t think has been in this thread) is an expert in the consumer (“good”) side. [/QUOTE] Cool. Me too. I’m in oil and gas though. Sounds like your in power? ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/106 "2007-03-03T00:29:45Z")
[QUOTE=T\_SQUARE] Cool. Me too. I’m in oil and gas though. Sounds like your in power? [/QUOTE] Coal power primarily. My name used to be “Anthracite” on here, and for a short time I had the TubaDiva gift of a member title of “Coal Goddess”. However, in recent years I’ve done scads of work for emissions controls, renewables and biomass. I also do oil and gas studies, but not as often, as well as pet coke, Orimulsion (back when it was cool), waste coal/mine tailings recovery and use, mine planning and resource studies, etc. I’ve also worked on neural networks, CEMs systems, nuclear analyzers, lab analyses of waste products, utilization of the same, etc. I guess I could list more things but you get the picture. ---
**Author:** ![DirkGntly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d9b06d/32.png) [@DirkGntly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirkGntly)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/107 "2007-03-03T00:31:04Z")
Folks, just follow the money: Al Gore purchases his “Carbon Offsets” from this company - Global Investment Management ( [http://www.generationim.com](http://www.generationim.com) ) Gore was a founder of this company and is still serving as a chairman! See here: (Warning! PDF!) [TODO: Add title](http://www.generationim.com/media/pdf-ft-08-11-04.pdf) The way I see this is: - Found company that invests in “green” companies - Invest $5000.00/yr in this company as a “carbon offset” - Promote “green” mentality that benefits “green” companies, and thus their profitability - PROFIT! Now, does this negate the “green” work that these companies do? No, not really…but it could call into question Gore’s motives for particular brand of stuff he’s peddling… ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/108 "2007-03-03T05:29:41Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] I think that the fact that those are even issues just proves my point. It’s not about what Gore actually does, it’s about how the perception of what he does can be spun to discredit his message. This same spin would be applied no matter who was carrying Gore’s message, or no matter what Gore’s message actually was. I really don’t think that he could have, because the story as it is doesn’t have any legs under it to begin with. He’s not doing anything remotely hypocritical. People are just making shit up about him. How do you prempt something like that? Several, actually. My uncle builds them for a living, and has lived in three of them at different times in his life. It’s pretty swank, but I think that’s an important part of Gore’s actual message, which is that enviromentalism isn’t at odds with wealth or success. If he stays on this message, his lifestyle becomes an asset, not a drawback. He can point to his 10,000 square foot house and say, “You can live in a place like this, and still be green.” [/QUOTE] Back, kinda tipsy, but can still see that **Miller** is ducking and weaving. 1. You’re right, my issue isn’t with Gore, it’s the idea that a guy with three bigger houses is telling me how to lighten my energy consumption, and the irony. 2)Who’s making shit up? Not me, you’re the one who can’t answer simple questions, and dodge every direct question I’ve asked, and have provided absolutely no cites for your position, other than “He’s Al Gore, he’s so dreamy…” 3)And---- YOU CAN’T LIVE IN A 10,000 FOOT HOUSE AND STILL BE GREEN. Jesus fuck. You can be wealthy and successful and be environmentally responsible, but you can’t be consuming conspicuously _at the same time_. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/109 "2007-03-03T15:24:29Z")
[QUOTE=samclem] How much Geo-thermal is possible in that part of Tennessee? [/quote] Well, if you’re a Martha Stewart-type who doesn’t give a shit about your neighbors and are willing to shell out the kind of money it takes to bore/blast through five miles of bedrock, then there’s plenty. I’ve been in the _area_ where Gore’s Nashville house is several times, there’s **no** way for him to do a practical geothermal system unless he’s willing to shell out money for his neighbors to repair their foundations. Yuo also _can’t_ drive down the street he lives on, it’s cordoned off like Area 51. IIRC, Gore _didn’t_ build that house, he bought it some years back. > [@](#): > > What would you have him do to use wind power? As anyone who’s had to spend a summer in this part of TN can tell you, there’s **no fucking wind in the summer here.** None. The air just sits there, smothering you, even people from more tropical climes complain about the heat in the summer. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/110 "2007-03-03T16:08:51Z")
[QUOTE=Tuckerfan] As anyone who’s had to spend a summer in this part of TN can tell you, there’s **no fucking wind in the summer here.** None. The air just sits there, smothering you, even people from more tropical climes complain about the heat in the summer. [/QUOTE] And one could just look at a wind resource map. [http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/ilands/fig13.html](http://www.eia.doe.gov/cneaf/solar.renewables/ilands/fig13.html) Nashville is not indicated directly on the map, but from its general location at best it’s in a “marginal” wind power classification zone (Zone 2). FTR, most projects I see that have a chance in hell of working with any real capacity and/or efficiency require Zone 4 or better. That doesn’t mean that you can’t do it (there are wind power projects in Zone 3 regions, even though it’s not the best thing), nor that within a Zone 2 region there might be a tiny landscape-dependent region which is higher, but you get the picture. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/111 "2007-03-03T21:45:27Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] Back, kinda tipsy, but can still see that **Miller** is ducking and weaving. [/quote] Actually, I’m ignoring you in favor of someone worth listening to. But if you insist… > [@](#): > > 1. You’re right, my issue isn’t with Gore, it’s the idea that a guy with three bigger houses is telling me how to lighten my energy consumption, and the irony. Why is that a problem for you? What about his message is rendered untrue or incorrect because of the number of houses he owns? Also, learn what “irony” means. > [@](#): > > 2)Who’s making shit up? Not me, you’re the one who can’t answer simple questions, and dodge every direct question I’ve asked, and have provided absolutely no cites for your position, other than “He’s Al Gore, he’s so dreamy…” I don’t think I’ve said anything in this thread that requires a cite. What, exactly, do you want cited? > [@](#): > > 3)And---- YOU CAN’T LIVE IN A 10,000 FOOT HOUSE AND STILL BE GREEN. Sure you can. It just depends on how fanatically you want to define “green.” Any size house can be said not to be “green” if compared to a smaller house. Assuming you’re okay with the concept of shelter in general, what size house is the minimum you’ll accept for someone calling themselves “green?” And, why should anyone use your particular standard? > [@](#): > > You can be wealthy and successful and be environmentally responsible, but you can’t be consuming conspicuously _at the same time_. And I’m still not convinced that owning three houses makes Gore a conspicuous consumer. How long ago were those houses built? How long has he owned them? What use is he putting them to now? How many resources are those houses using up on an annual basis? Look, it’s clear you’ve got some deep-seated hatred of Al Gore. I don’t know why. Maybe he recycled your puppy. Yes, Gore doesn’t structure every single last detail of his life to make sure its absolutely, totally as enviromentally friendly as he possibly can. But he’s not asking anyone else to do that, either. You’re demanding that he radically reorder his private life before you’ll listen to what he has say, even though nothing in what he’s saying is calling for that sort of radical change in _anyone’s_ life. Why are you demanding that he hold himself to a higher standard than he’s holding anyone else to? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/112 "2007-03-03T23:03:18Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] And I’m still not convinced that owning three houses makes Gore a conspicuous consumer. How long ago were those houses built? How long has he owned them? What use is he putting them to now? How many resources are those houses using up on an annual basis? Look, it’s clear you’ve got some deep-seated hatred of Al Gore. [/QUOTE] If owning three houses, one at 10,000 sq. feet, doesn’t make you a conspicuous consumer, I’m not sure what would. Just heating an empty house is a waste of energy, and you’ve got to heat a house in a cold climate or the pipes will burst. At least _my_ lake cottage lacks heating/air. 😃 Nonetheless, that doesn’t mean that Gore’s not qualified to campaign for a cleaner environment any more than a dude who campaigns for better housing for the poor has to personally live in the slums. ---
**Author:** ![fisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@fisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fisha)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/113 "2007-03-04T01:10:06Z")
**Miller** , your obtuseness would be endearing if you weren’t such a raving moron. I’m done with you. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/114 "2007-03-04T02:33:14Z")
[QUOTE=dahfisheroo] I’m done with you. [/QUOTE] Thank God for small favors. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/115 "2007-03-04T03:35:17Z")
[QUOTE=Miller] Thank God for small favors. [/QUOTE] Gosh, **Miller**. Your posts are spot on. You really nailed it. I hope you stick around forever and ever. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/116 "2007-03-04T03:41:44Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor the Barbarian] Gosh, **Miller**. Your posts are spot on. You really nailed it. I hope you stick around forever and ever. 😉 [/QUOTE] Ditto. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/117 "2007-03-04T04:20:46Z")
[QUOTE=PunditLisa] Nonetheless, that doesn’t mean that Gore’s not qualified to campaign for a cleaner environment any more than a dude who campaigns for better housing for the poor has to personally live in the slums. [/QUOTE] Actually, a better comparison would be a person who campaigns for better housing for the poor and then, as a landlord, rents substandard housing to poor people. Not that Gore would do anything like that, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/118 "2007-03-04T04:34:08Z")
[QUOTE=furt] Actually, a better comparison would be a person who campaigns for better housing for the poor and then, as a landlord, rents substandard housing to poor people. Not that Gore would do anything like that, of course. [/QUOTE] No, that would interfere with his quest to destroy Manbearpig. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/119 "2007-03-04T04:39:40Z")
[QUOTE=furt] Actually, a better comparison would be a person who campaigns for better housing for the poor and then, as a landlord, rents substandard housing to poor people. Not that Gore would do anything like that, of course. [/QUOTE] 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aquila\_Be](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a698b9/32.png) [@Aquila\_Be](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aquila_Be)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 10:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276/120 "2007-03-04T10:21:00Z")
[QUOTE=ivylass] [And just who is he buying his carbon offsets from, hmmmm?](http://billhobbs.com/2007/02/more_on_gore.html) Answer: Himself!! [/QUOTE] Thank you. Absolutely brilliant tactic putting it in a spoiler tag. Now I don’t have to put my fingers in my ears and say “La la la la la — I can’t hear you!” You’ve done it for me 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-gore-your-carbon-credit-plan-is-a-pyramid-scheme/394276.md?page=5)