# Al-Jazeera broadcasting leaked "Palestine Papers" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808 "2011-01-24T17:31:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/201 "2011-01-30T15:52:19Z")
**newcomer** has established that facts only make the real world, which is very simple and all one or the other other thing, seem instead pseudocomplex. This rhetorical device of yours of citing facts is just a tool of the oppressor used to prevent taking action based on simplistic understandings, which is all anyone really needs. (S)he is on to that and will not be distracted or acknowledge any information that does not fit into his or her current beliefs. You and your cabel of oppressors will have to try some other sly trick. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/202 "2011-01-30T15:59:34Z")
Well, why not? We’ve already had a quality wikicite detailing how accusations of people hating Jews cause people to hate Jews, and are in fact, probably the prime cause of people hating Jews these days. Along the same lines, I can see how the nasty Factistas are conspiring to keep a good narrative down by pointing out that it shares no similarities with reality. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/203 "2011-01-30T18:12:08Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Seems pretty safe to say that your argument continues on, totally unchanged, regardless of being shown that the entire factual underpinning to your claims was shown to be false. Like citing my post for your ‘book jacket’ joke, although the post was 100% factual… which apparently you don’t like for some reason. Doesn’t that strike you as, maybe, odd? Is your position that – based on the leaked docs – it is not true that Israeli side rejected (repeatedly) the most favorable peace offer in a long time? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/204 "2011-01-30T18:13:40Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **newcomer** has established that facts only make the real world, which is very simple and all one or the other other thing, seem instead pseudocomplex. This rhetorical device of yours of citing facts is just a tool of the oppressor used to prevent taking action based on simplistic understandings, which is all anyone really needs. (S)he is on to that and will not be distracted or acknowledge any information that does not fit into his or her current beliefs. You and your cabel of oppressors will have to try some other sly trick. Is your position also that – based on the leaked docs – it is not true that Israeli side rejected (repeatedly) the most favorable peace offer in a long time? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/205 "2011-01-30T18:24:22Z")
Just to remind you (again), you’re the one who was caught in a massive factual error whereby you actually accused the facts of being somehow false and _still_ will not admit that it was Abbas who suspended negotiations, on three separate occasions: before the (alleged and denied by PA negotiators) offer was made, after the (alleged and denied by PA negotiators) offer was made, and almost immediately after negotiations resumed roughly two years after he suspended talks. The (alleged and denied by PA negotiators) “most favorable” offer that you’re referring to was before Abbas suspended negotiations in December of 2008. Assuming it was still on the table when negotiations resumed, those negotiations _were again suspended by Abbas._ This has all been cited for you, and you’ve provided no retraction, at all, and haven’t modified your position, at all. The facts seem to have no effect on your narrative, at all. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/206 "2011-01-30T18:38:23Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Just to remind you (again), you’re the one who was caught in a massive factual error whereby you actually accused the facts of being somehow false and _still_ will not admit that it was Abbas who suspended negotiations, on three separate occasions: before the (alleged and denied by PA negotiators) offer was made, after the (alleged and denied by PA negotiators) offer was made, and almost immediately after negotiations resumed roughly two years after he suspended talks. > The (alleged and denied by PA negotiators) “most favorable” offer that you’re referring to was before Abbas suspended negotiations in December of 2008. Assuming it was still on the table when negotiations resumed, those negotiations _were again suspended by Abbas._ This has all been cited for you, and you’ve provided no retraction, at all, and haven’t modified your position, at all. > > The facts seem to have no effect on your narrative, at all. This has nothing to do with the question asked and you are just skewing and using one of the ways I described earlier to sabotage discussion. Colloquially referred to as trolling. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/207 "2011-01-30T18:40:15Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You act as if other posters don’t say things that have the cumulative effect of calling me a liar or worse. If THAT is the standard I’d like to revisit some old threads. In fact there was an entire ATMB thread about how one poster in particular was doing exactly these things but hadn’t crossed the line so it was OK but when I do it, its offensive to you? Don’t get hung up playing “rules” games. I was addressing this thread and the posts in the day preceding my intervention in which the two posters I called out had submitted the most posts regarding other posters’ persons rather than arguments. All threads regarding Israel and Palestine are inherently contentious. I tend to discourage that contentiousness from erupting into feuds before they involve rules violations or cause the threads to jump the tracks. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/208 "2011-01-30T18:42:54Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This has nothing to do with the question asked and you are just skewing and using one of the ways I described earlier to sabotage discussion. Colloquially referred to as trolling. You are out of line. You are not to claim another poster is trolling outside The BBQ Pit. Knock it off. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/209 "2011-01-30T19:02:10Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > This has nothing to do with the question asked \*Unsurprisingly, whether or not your basic factual claims have any connection to reality or not is, indeed, relevant to whether or not your argument is the least bit factual. \* Specifically, whether or not it was Abbas who suspended negotiations would seem, for any rational analysis, to support or falsify your claim that it was someone other than Abbas who stopped negotiations and said “no”. (Your claim is falsified) In point of fact, you’re shown to be wildly wrong on the facts. Abbas suspended negotiations both before and after the alleged-and-denied-by-the-PA offer was made, and then suspended negotiations pretty much immediately upon their resumption two years after that. It is rather obvious that one cannot say “no” to an offer if they’re beaten to the punch by someone else saying “I’m suspending negotiations themselves.” But your narrative cannot stand with that facts, which is why you _still_ have not addressed your error nor modified your position once it was pointed out, and cited. ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/210 "2011-01-30T20:35:05Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > \*Unsurprisingly, whether or not your basic factual claims have any connection to reality or not is, indeed, relevant to whether or not your argument is the least bit factual. \* > Specifically, whether or not it was Abbas who suspended negotiations would seem, for any rational analysis, to support or falsify your claim that it was someone other than Abbas who stopped negotiations and said “no”. (Your claim is falsified) > In point of fact, you’re shown to be wildly wrong on the facts. Abbas suspended negotiations both before and after the alleged-and-denied-by-the-PA offer was made, and then suspended negotiations pretty much immediately upon their resumption two years after that. It is rather obvious that one cannot say “no” to an offer if they’re beaten to the punch by someone else saying “I’m suspending negotiations themselves.” > > But your narrative cannot stand with that facts, which is why you _still_ have not addressed your error nor modified your position once it was pointed out, and cited. This may not be complex enough for you, and you may get a feeling that all the books you read are to waste because you simply are not correct. Most commentators summarize the Papers as showing Palestinians weak because they kept giving more than the common agreement on what they might give up is (among commentators) and any time they offered, Israelis kept rejecting as not enough. Now, for your Googling pleasure - I haven’t read any commentary ANYWHERE that says Papers reveals how peace was almost agreed upon if only Abbas did not suspend the talks. Anywhere but here and only from you, that is. Therefore, I call BS on your proposition that talks in 2008 failed because Abbas kept suspending. And, a little gem from Tzipi Livni: “I am a lawyer… But I am against law —international law in particular. Law in general. If we want to make the agreement smaller, can we just drop some of these issues? Like international law, this will make the agreements easier.” :o ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/211 "2011-01-30T22:55:39Z")
Ah. The “well most if the commentators I’ve read” gambit. They’re not in this thread, and I couldn’t question them about any views you claim they hold, even if thy were relevant. But, yet again, facts show that the reason negotiations stopped was not any “refusal” on specific issues, but a suspension of negotiating.itself by Abbas, on multiple occasions. Yet again, would you care to address this fact and change your argument since its very supporting facts have been shown to be in error? Or, more likely, regardless of who stopped negotiations, are you going to keep the sane narrative that is completely unconcerned with and disconnected from the necessities of factual support? ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/212 "2011-01-30T22:59:43Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ah. The “well most if the commentators I’ve read” gambit. They’re not in this thread, and I couldn’t question them about any views you claim they hold, even if thy were relevant. But, yet again, facts show that the reason negotiations stopped was not any “refusal” on specific issues, but a suspension of negotiating.itself by Abbas, on multiple occasions. > > Yet again, would you care to address this fact and change your argument since its very supporting facts have been shown to be in error? Or, more likely, regardless of who stopped negotiations, are you going to keep the sane narrative that is completely unconcerned with and disconnected from the necessities of factual support? With respect to OP, I can point to a number of people saying what I say. You cannot point to a single one. EOD! ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/213 "2011-01-30T23:05:12Z")
Keeping the same narrative it is, then. (and same, not “sane”. Typing on an iPod can suck) ---
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/214 "2011-01-30T23:06:24Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Keeping the same natrrative it is, then. Yes. Because it is the correct one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/215 "2011-01-30T23:29:33Z")
This exchange goes to show exactly what I’ve been saying for years; some narratives, no matter how thoroughly falsified by facts, will be repeated. No matter if all of their support is knocked out from under them, they’ll endure. Or thrive. Damuri tells us that somehow he came to the exact conclusion even when he was shown to be wrong in the facts, since the facts were meanly being used as a scalpel to allow lying (A GD legal accusation, it seems). They must be lying scalpel facts, after all, since of course facts which showed that his reflexive anti-Israel narrative, which is someone else’s fault anyways, was wrong… simply must be improper. Newcomer proclaims that his narrative is correct, despite being proven to be wrong on the relevant facts, and that facts only distort his narrative with pseudocomexity and, plus, there’s a bandwagon fallacy that can be used in support if required. Against some beliefs, the Gods themselves contend in vain. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/216 "2011-01-30T23:31:14Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Is your position also that – based on the leaked docs – it is not true that Israeli side rejected (repeatedly) the most favorable peace offer in a long time? It is my understanding that the Israeli side rejected the most favorable peace offer in a long time and that the Palestinian side the rejected the most favorable peace offer in a long time. Abbas ended up being the one to leave the table (not the focus for commentators this week as it is already an established bit of history). Neither side’s most favorable was enough for the other side. They got close, very close, but this is not hand grenades - close isn’t good enough. I am both impressed and saddened that, according to this [JPost](http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?ID=205065&R=R1) version of the events, they seriously considered one of my past proposed solutions … but that Livni couldn’t agree to it. > [@](#): > > When it became clear during the discussion that the PA position was that the settlers in Ma’aleh Adumim did not have to be evacuated, PLO chief negotiator Erekat said to Livni, “Can you imagine that you accept for the sake of peace to have Jews as citizens with full rights in Palestine like Arab Israelis?” Livni replied, “But how can I provide Israelis living in Palestine with security?” To which Erekat responded, “Can you imagine that I have changed my DNA and accepted a situation in which Jews become citizens having the rights that I and my wife have. Can you imagine that this will happen one day?” One of the Israeli negotiators in the room, Udi Dekel, then interjected, “I do not have such fancy.” > > Livni, however, was more diplomatic. “I have to think about this. I do not know. > > You have proposed something, but I believe we have to be creative. My problem is that of security. Some said to me that there would be violence among my people if I evacuated them [from the settlements], but the pressure will be less if I give the right to choose. I cannot bear the responsibility of their life in case they are exposed to danger and then the army will have to interfere. > > It is a legitimate question but we need to think about it.” > > The issue came up again some three weeks later, in which Qurei said that the Jews in Ma’aleh Adumim “can live under Palestinian rule,” to which Livni replied, “You know this is not realistic.” > > Qurei then said, “So take them [out], like you did in Gaza.” To which Livni responded, “We are going to [take out many settlers].” > > Later in the discussion Qurei said he didn’t mind if the Israelis became Palestinian citizens, to which Livni replied, “You know this is not realistic. They will kill them the next day.” > > At a meeting in mid-June 2008 between Livni, Qurei and Rice, Livni asked Qurei whether his problem with Ma’aleh Adumim was because of its size or location. > > His reply was that it blocked Jerusalem from the east, and that Jerusalem was already blocked from the south. > > “Perhaps Ma’aleh Adumim will remain under Palestinian sovereignty and it could be a model for cooperation and coexistence,” he said. The solution was there: they could stay as citizens of the new Palestinian state or leave, their choice, but if they stayed they would be as deserving of protection as any other citizen of the new country. It should have happened. Olmert and Livni should have gone that extra inch. Maybe it will happen yet. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2011, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/217 "2011-01-30T23:48:44Z")
But even that is not saying “no” to an offer, in toto. Any negotiated settlement in Final Status issues will have to deal with proposals and counter proposals. And there doesn’t seem to be any evidence that everything else was agreed to but that one sticking point scuttled negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/218 "2011-02-01T02:36:32Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > 1. Yes, significantly different. First off we’ve already established that some sizable number of the Arabs in Palestine at time of the influx of European Jews were immigrants into the area as much as the Jews were. No doubt that there were more arabs in Palestine in 1946 than there in the 1890’s but I’m not sure how that makes it different than Germany in any way that matters. Are you saying Palestine was effectively unclaimed land so it was better to take Palestine than already inhabited land in Germany? > [@](#): > > And that Jewish immigration did not displace any Arabs until the Partition (and even then it needed not to have caused any displacement, albeit by then both sides were contributing to it). There was enough room for both. If only those obstinate Palestinians would have gone along with the UN partition plan, none of this would have been necessary. There’s really no other way to look at it. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Your proposal would have required displacing people who were indeed almost all in their ancestral homes. Yes I think that is exactly what I am proposing. Were the ancestral homes of Jews in Germany treated with the same level of deference you want to treat German homes? Were the Palestinian ancestral homes treated with the same level of respect? > [@](#): > > 1. Are you saying that rank and file German citizens, who may have had nothing to do with the Nazi party, who may have even been among the “Righteous Gentiles” for all we know, should be punished merely for their national identity? Yep, I think thats pretty much what I’m saying, you can move the displaced German to refugee camps and I presume the “righteous Gentiles” would still be offered whatever you want to give people who risked their lives to save Jews during the holocaust, perhaps even citizenship. > [@](#): > > 1. Jews across the world had no ties or claim to Germany; OTOH Jews had always had a presence in Israel/Palestine, despite having been kicked out many years previous, and had always kept returning there as part of the group’s religious system. Yeah, I recognize the historical connection between Judaism and Palestine. The three major monotheistic religions in the world all have that connection. How does that justify a Jewish Israel any more than it justifies a Christian or Muslim Israel? The justification for Israel as far as I can tell is that a Jewish state is desirable for a whole host of reasons. Nothing about that makes it desirable in Palestine as opposed to anywhere else. > [@](#): > > 1. Even _if_ not “really that different than what happened to the Palestinians” (which it would have been), why would it then be acceptable if you think what happened in Palestine was not? Well, I think that exhibit A in why a Jewish state is necessary is the holocaust. So I think that we can carve that state out of Germany rather than Palestine. > [@](#): > > No need to Godwinize. Believing that there would be a large number of hate crimes and terror attacks against Jews (greater in scale than the Muslim on Muslim attacks in places such as Iraq), aimed at driving them out of the country, perpetrated by extremist groups who disagree with the compromises made by their leadership, is not believing that there would be another Holocaust. But it would be very naive to believe that _all_ groups would suddenly play nice. Listen to yourself. With that theory firmly in place, why the heck would Israel ever support a Palestinian state? One that could act as a state sponsor of terrorism in Israel. What is the plan to get people in the area to stop hating Jews enough to want to kill them? > [@](#): > > I’d imagine that some in Israel are very concerned. Still the prospect of Egypt deciding to attack Israel again militarily seems very unlikely even if radical Islamists take over. The more realistic risk is that in your scenario they would arm Hamas. Still the result might end up being getting Egypt and Israel going at it. I don’t think such an outcome can be completely discounted but I think most think that the Islamist powers in Egypt have little desire to go head to head against Israel and would not cross any line that would go there. Yeah thats a situation that couldn’t possibly deteriorate. > [@](#): > > No that does not make the analogy more accurate; it makes it much less accurate. But let’s run with it. Joe is in the basement and he believes with all his heart that this is his house that I have stolen from him. Maybe you believe it too. I believe that I have a right to the house though too. With as much of my heart as Joe believes the whole house is his. Joe has tried to murder me and my children and killed my pets and promises that someday he will succeed in killing me and all of my family. The neighbors used to all say it was _their_ house and when Joe left the house they wouldn’t give him a place to stay so he’s stuck in my basement. They given up on kicking me out of the house but feel free to keep egging Joe on. NOW those neighbors say that they’ll stop egging him on if I try to share the house with him and this guy says if I do he won’t try to murder and my family for ten years, but after that … it’s game on. Yeah, great idea. I’m sure to say yes. And your alternative is? Ten years is a long time. A lot can happen in ten years. > [@](#): > > Correct. The only potential existential threat is Iran getting a nuclear weapon. Nevertheless threats that are not existential are still very real. There is a very real threat of major terror attacks in Israeli cities that could kill thousands. Not an existential threat but not one that Israel desires to live with. And do you think Israel’s behaviour is making the deaths of thousands more likely or less likely? > [@](#): > > You claimed that people were asking you to read a whole book list. I responded that even that link alone would be a very reasonable knowledge base. No one has said you are not entitled to an opinion or that you need to read a book list. Just that one or two Wikipedia articles and hearing party talking points are not a definitive knowledge fund in and of themselves. When you’ve asked for where you could learn more, people have volunteered sources they have thought are good critical reviews that have not flinched from bursting the myths of each side. No one has said that you need to read all of them to be informed. Please stop claiming that any one has. Maybe the whole booklist thing is hyperbole. After all only two books were identified by name [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13404070&postcount=139](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13404070&postcount=139) But it has been suggested that I really need to read half a dozen books or visit Israel [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13404757&postcount=143](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13404757&postcount=143) Sorry but wikipedia should be enough to get started on any debate, it should be enough to at least get involved and if I’m wrong then show me and I’ll change my tune. I’ve done so many times but its never been because wikipedia was incomplete or incorrect. I read that history of Israel link you posted upthread. ([Brief History of of Palestine, Israel and the Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Arab-Israeli conflict, Middle East Conflict)](http://mideastweb.org/briefhistory.htm#Modern%20History)) I read it because I wasn’t able to identify significant spin as I was reading it so I kept reading but I don’t see why this is the ONE topic in all of Great Debates where a wikipedia level of knowledge on a topic isn’t enough to participate in a debate. > [@](#): > > My what a surprise that Dopers who are posting on Israel threads, Jewish or not, tend to people who are informed about the subject some. And what a surprise that people who are informed about a subject tend to bristle at someone who implies that they know enough about it because they read a Wiki article and talk to people at parties. So tell me where I’m wrong and back it up with cites but stop complaining that I don’t belong in the debate because I have a wikipedia level of knowledge because there are at least three times in this thread where I have used wikipedia to counter claims made by others. To put it simply: cite? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/219 "2011-02-01T02:51:15Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > Don’t get hung up playing “rules” games. I think one of my problems with Israel threads is that I am not hung up ENOUGH on rules games. I have not developed the skill of calling someone a liar without actually saying the word liar or accusing someone of trolling without actually saying “you’re a troll” > [@](#): > > I was addressing this thread and the posts in the day preceding my intervention in which the two posters I called out had submitted the most posts regarding other posters’ persons rather than arguments. Really? Which posters’ person did I submit posts about? I don’t recall identifying any poster. > [@](#): > > All threads regarding Israel and Palestine are inherently contentious. I tend to discourage that contentiousness from erupting into feuds before they involve rules violations or cause the threads to jump the tracks. > > [/Modding] I’m just pointing out that over time I have noticed a marked tolerance for the “cumulative effect” of some posters posts. How useful is it to criticize my knowledge level without providing cites that anything I say is incorrect or arguing against what I say, they are arguing against where I get my information? We’ve had a few pages of that pointless argument but I can’t ignore it because it is an attempt to undercut everything I say. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2011, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/220 "2011-02-01T03:06:11Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Sorry but wikipedia should be enough to get started on any debate, it should be enough to at least get involved and if I’m wrong then show me and I’ll change my tune. Like you changed your tune when it was pointed out to you that land ownership among Palestinians was actually rare and most did not own the land they lived on. Oh, no, wait, you kept the exact same view and accused the facts of being used to mislead you since you were just sure you were correct. Also, you blamed other people for the situation that despite what new facts you were exposed to, your first instinct was to squeeze them into an anti-Israel narrative, somehow. Or when you changed your tune on how the UN created Israel when it was pointed out that they never actually did anything other than voice some powerless words that were never enforced. Oh, no, wait, you kept the same exact view there too, including making the same error, again and again and again, where you thought that the Arab armies declared war once Partition was voted on or once it was supposed to go into effect, and not once Israel declared independence. That was probably my fault, too. Hopefully folks reading along will notice that for all the talk of how malleable the argument is, Damuri has provided precisely zero examples (let alone cites) of how his position has changed. In fact, his position has not. His admitted style of debate, of taking any new information and trying to shoehorn it into an anti-Israel narrative was one that he used since the first thread he was posting in on the subject, but he still blames his habitual anti-Israel narrative on someone other than himself. Naturally. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > there are at least three times in this thread where I have used wikipedia to counter claims made by others. Posters should note the same error here. The wikicites did not counter any claims, they simply showed Damuri’s lack of knowledge and how he misuses Wiki to hold onto that lack of knowledge. Faced with the fact that, for instance, there was substantial criticism of Israel, especially during the hugely publicized peace process of the 1990’s, his response was that since it didn’t talk much about it in his wikicite, that he couldn’t credit it as having happened. But it’s okay. Surely, Damuri has stayed at a Holiday Inn recently, too. > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I have not developed the skill of calling someone a liar without actually saying the word liar or accusing someone of trolling without actually saying “you’re a troll” And just because this complaint is somewhat amusing, considering that Damuri is evidently allowed to accuse people of lying and trolling: > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It was like he reveled in having used superior knowledge to be able to create a false impression without actually mistating the facts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808.md?page=12)