# Al-Jazeera broadcasting leaked "Palestine Papers" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808 "2011-01-24T17:31:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![newcomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/e5b9ba/32.png) [@newcomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/newcomer)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/41 "2011-01-25T17:01:32Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Already cited was the fact that the talks were actually stopped by Abbas, in December of 2008. This is simple fact, you have not disputed it. > Olmert was indicted for corruption charges in August of 2009. This was eight months after Abbas froze negotiations in December of 2008. > Olmert said he would not seek re-election in July of 2008. That was six months before Abbas froze negotiations in December of 2008. > Your claims make no sense. Negotiations stalled due to Hamas-Israel war at that time. Abbas did not freeze anything; in fact, he was calling on both sides to stop. It is misconstruing (which is an inch from outright lying) to suggest he is responsible for stalled negotiations. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/42 "2011-01-25T17:11:58Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > Negotiations stalled due to Hamas-Israel war at that time. Abbas did not freeze anything; in fact, he was calling on both sides to stop. It is misconstruing (which is an inch from outright lying) to suggest he is responsible for stalled negotiations. This directly contradicts the contemporaneous Washington Post article I posted above, which expressly states that “Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas on Sunday suspended peace talks with Israel”. Is there any support for your version of events? Moreover, your story has changed from “main reason for those talks to stop was that Olmert had to step down due to corruption charges” to “Negotiations stalled due to Hamas-Israel war”. What I glean from the articles is that Abbas suspended talks because of Palestinian outrage over the Hamas conflict. They remained suspended for two years. When they resumed last year, he pretty well instantly suspended talks _again_ due to Palestinian outrage over Israeli settlements. If I am incorrect in that assessment, or misled by the sources, please point me to some facts demonstrating same. This is not consistent with Israel shutting down talks in spite of the great concessions offered by the Palestinian negotiators. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/43 "2011-01-25T17:12:08Z")
Ironically, that was another suspension in the negotiating process, Malthus. (Edit: referring to the March 2008 suspension) The one that came after the alleged offer, and the one that I and (I think) Newcomer is referring to, is Abbas’ suspension after the 2008 Israel-Hamas war. [ > [@](#): > > Abbas suspended direct negotiations with Israel after its offensive on the Gaza Strip in December 2008. ]([http://www.jordantimes.com/index.php?news=28766](http://www.jordantimes.com/index.php?news=28766)) > [@newcomer](#): > > Abbas did not freeze anything I have now provided two separate cites now saying he did. You have your word that he did not. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/44 "2011-01-25T17:23:45Z")
> [@newcomer](#): > > It is misconstruing (which is an inch from outright lying) to suggest he is responsible for stalled negotiations. In case you missed this upthread: > [@Marley23](#): > > This post is a bit ironic since you are breaking forum rules here. You’re not allowed to call another poster a liar in GD, and these personal comments are not appropriate in general. In the future please save this kind of thing for the Pit or don’t post it all. Leave out the accusations of dishonesty entirely. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/45 "2011-01-25T17:24:55Z")
There were several instances where Abbas suspended talks, so I’m not sure which specific instance newcomer has an issue with (or if s/he has an issue with all of them), but [here](http://www.geo.tv/10-9-2010/72593.htm) is a (different) cite showing that the Arab League supported him in his suspension (which would presume that he actually did in fact suspend talks): > [@](#): > > Arab League backs Abbas over talks’ suspension > > SIRTE: Arab League leaders say they support the Palestinians’ decision to stop direct talks with Israel unless the Israelis agree to halt all settlement construction in the West Bank. > > But the ministers, who held preliminary talks on Friday in Libya, also said in a statement after the meeting that they will give the US another month to find a way to break the impasse. The decision represents a compromise as the US struggles to prevent a total collapse of direct negotiations between the two sides that began last month. > [@](#): > > Abbas is set to present his case to the Arab League for suspending peace talks. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/46 "2011-01-25T17:28:49Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Ironically, that was another suspension in the negotiating process, Malthus. > The one that came after the alleged offer, and the one that I and (I think) Newcomer is referring to, is Abbas’ suspension after the 2008 Israel-Hamas war. > > [url=[http://www.jordantimes.com/index.php?news=28766](http://www.jordantimes.com/index.php?news=28766)] > > I have now provided two separate cites now saying he did. > You have your word that he did not. I must admit to being confused with the timeline. I wish there was some sort of chart, demonstrating when each suspension was made. I do know that talks were suspended for two years in 2008, and at the insistence of Abbas. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/47 "2011-01-25T17:31:09Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Apart from the bit about the Israel lobby, I completely agree with this. What’s wrong with the bit about the Israel lobby? And as far as whether Abbas shut down talks or not, why did he do that? Because Israel were bombing the crap out of the Palestinians, something they knew would cause the Palestinians to suspend negotiations so that they could in future blame the Palestinians for suspending the negotiations. If we’re accepting the veracity of these documents then it’s even more clear than it ever has been that Israel have no desire at all to make any kind of peace offer that’s acceptable and are going to continue their policy of the slow-motion ethnic cleansing/land thest of the 22% of historic Palestine that they don’t already have. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/48 "2011-01-25T17:35:29Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I actually have tons of sympathy for the Palestinian negotiators. The fact is that with the Hamas split, their bargaining power is basically nil - they cannot even legitimately offer a comprehensive peace, as that is no longer in their power to command; any goodwill gestures they make can easily be countered by Hamas provocations, and it is in Hamas’ best interests to _avoid_ any comprehensive peace - which would invariably undercut its influence vs. the PA. Meanwhile, any realistic concessions they make will be seen (as demonstrated) as ‘sell-outs’. They are boxed in. > > It doesn’t help that the current Israeli gov’t is the most hardline in years and uninterested in making any concessions. It’s been almost-official Israeli policy over the past few years to think of Gaza and the West Bank as two separate and unrelated nations (the Strip is often referred to as “Hamastan”). I suspect that sometimes we forget that the Palestinians don’t necessarily think the same way. And \*\*Malthus \*\*- it isn’t that the current government is too hardline; Ariel Sharon was the most hardline sumbitch be ever had, and he left Gaza. It’s that Bibi is incapable of committing to \*any \*course of action. He won’t make peace, not because of his ideology (if he has one), but because he lacks the political cojones to take the risk. If it’s any consolation, he won’t bomb Iran for the exact same reason. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/49 "2011-01-25T17:38:11Z")
> [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > What’s wrong with the bit about the Israel lobby? > > And as far as whether Abbas shut down talks or not, why did he do that? Because Israel were bombing the crap out of the Palestinians, something they knew would cause the Palestinians to suspend negotiations so that they could in future blame the Palestinians for suspending the negotiations. If we’re accepting the veracity of these documents then it’s even more clear than it ever has been that Israel have no desire at all to make any kind of peace offer that’s acceptable and are going to continue their policy of the slow-motion ethnic cleansing/land thest of the 22% of historic Palestine that they don’t already have. I dont believe any Israel lobby dictates the US’s foreign policies. Cutting off the US backup to Israel would certainly play a role in forcing the latter to consider real sacrifices for peace’s sake. But the mentality regarding the peace process is Israeli, not American. Take off the Israel lobby in the us, and I’m not sure we’d still see a real peace process in our lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/50 "2011-01-25T17:42:13Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] And as far as whether Abbas shut down talks or not, why did he do that? Because Israel were bombing the crap out of the Palestinians, something they knew would cause the Palestinians to suspend negotiations so that they could in future blame the Palestinians for suspending the negotiations. [/QUOTE] Even assuming that is 100% correct and the only reason Abbas shut down the talks, a follow on question would be ‘why was Israel bombing the crap out of the Palestinians at that time?’. It’s a vicious cycle. And, regardless, newcomer seemed to be denying categorically that Abbas broke off those negotiations, regardless of circumstance or rationale. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/51 "2011-01-25T17:43:51Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I dont believe any Israel lobby dictates the US’s foreign policies. Cutting off the US backup to Israel would certainly play a role in forcing the latter to consider real sacrifices for peace’s sake. But the mentality regarding the peace process is Israeli, not American. Take off the Israel lobby in the us, and I’m not sure we’d still see a real peace process in our lifetime. If America didn’t routinely block any UN resolution critical of Israel or prevent any attempt at enforcing sanctions from getting anywhere then Israel would have been under sanctions for decades now. They would have made a deal long ago and the whole thing would have been history. Instead they continue to play for all the marbles because they know that there’s going to be no international pressure for them to make a deal. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/52 "2011-01-25T17:47:08Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Even assuming that is 100% correct and the only reason Abbas shut down the talks, a follow on question would be ‘why was Israel bombing the crap out of the Palestinians at that time?’. It’s a vicious cycle. And, regardless, newcomer seemed to be denying categorically that Abbas broke off those negotiations, regardless of circumstance or rationale. > > -XT And what creates the cycle in the first place? The Israeli occupation. Israel have total military control of the situation and can ramp up and down the violence whnever they want to suit their current purposes. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/53 "2011-01-25T17:47:28Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s been almost-official Israeli policy over the past few years to think of Gaza and the West Bank as two separate and unrelated nations (the Strip is often referred to as “Hamastan”). I suspect that sometimes we forget that the Palestinians don’t necessarily think the same way. Does official or almost-official Israeli policy really understand that an independent Palestine necessarily would control its own borders with Jordan **and** Egypt? And that trade with both would be important to its economy, and would necessarily create a lot of trade/shipping between the WB and Gaza? And that, therefore, Palestine would quite reasonably demand a right of free passage across Israeli territory between Gaza and the WB, at least for commercial purposes? (The passage might be limited to a designated route.) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/54 "2011-01-25T17:51:22Z")
[QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] And what creates the cycle in the first place? The Israeli occupation. [/QUOTE] Huh…and here I was going to say Palestinian violence against the Jews in the region prior to the formation of Israel, and Palestinian refusal to abide by the UN partition of the region into two separate, sovereign nations and the subsequent war for survival that Israel was forced to fight and… Well, it goes on and on. There are two sides to any story, and you seem to only be familiar with a skewed version of one of those sides. To me, there is no real beginning to the cycle, since it goes back for decades or even centuries…sort of like the conflicts in Ireland. At a certain point it’s not profitable to keep bringing up Oooo killled Oooo, or who’s castle burned down and fell into the swamp first. -XT ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/55 "2011-01-25T17:54:02Z")
Just out of curiosity, if this “right of return” were granted, what would happen? How many people are we talking about, where would they go if they could, what property would they claim? And if they went to Israel, would they be Israeli citizens? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/56 "2011-01-25T17:54:38Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I must admit to being confused with the timeline. I wish there was some sort of chart, demonstrating when each suspension was made. > > I do know that talks were suspended for two years in 2008, and at the insistence of Abbas. I believe that the distinction was that in March 2008 what was suspended was the series of negotiations that had been ongoing on the ‘roadmap’, and in December 2008 all direct negotiation itself was suspended. > [@Alessan](#): > > Ariel Sharon was the most hardline sumbitch be ever had, and he left Gaza. In before: “But they said that was designed to freeze the peace process until things improved, preserving it in ‘formaldehyde’. That just shows that they were ending the peace process” > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > the 22% of historic Palestine that they don’t already have. And again, standard fact checking: [The vast majority of land of “historic Palestine” is owned by Jordan, not Israel.](http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/british_mandate_palestine.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/57 "2011-01-25T18:02:35Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Virtually everyone knows what an actual peace agreement will look like and of course it includes land swaps modifying the 1967 line and the Palestinian side giving up most if not all of E Jerusalem (some symbolic presence) and the Right to Return (allowing instead some symbolic number and other face saving concessions in exchange). It also includes Israel having to evacuate some settlements as well. _Of course_ any serious negotiation included those options with the only real questions being what gets packaged around it - how does Israel get reassured that security can be delivered and what else do the Palestinians get in terms which land in exchange, of water rights, revenue sharing, etc. - and how then to sell it to each side’s voters. > > Everyone knows this and yet neither side can publicly admit to it. Neither side can stand up to their domestic pressures to look tough until they can present the whole package and sell that they are getting enough in return. > > Absurd. Right now, Israel’s hardliners win by making sure that a peace deal is not achieved. The same can be said for the Hamas hardliners. Neither wants peace. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/58 "2011-01-25T18:04:15Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Just out of curiosity, if this “right of return” were granted, what would happen? How many people are we talking about, where would they go if they could, what property would they claim? And if they went to Israel, would they be Israeli citizens? Theres are all good questions, and there are no firm answers to any of them. The revelations in the papers are that, allegedly, the Palestinian negotiators seriously considered reducing the “right of return” to a symbolic or nominal level. However, that is not how the vast majority of Palestinians living in exile apparently understand the “right”. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/59 "2011-01-25T18:08:12Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > It’s been almost-official Israeli policy over the past few years to think of Gaza and the West Bank as two separate and unrelated nations (the Strip is often referred to as “Hamastan”). I suspect that sometimes we forget that the Palestinians don’t necessarily think the same way. > > And \*\*Malthus \*\*- it isn’t that the current government is too hardline; Ariel Sharon was the most hardline sumbitch be ever had, and he left Gaza. It’s that Bibi is incapable of committing to \*any \*course of action. He won’t make peace, not because of his ideology (if he has one), but because he lacks the political cojones to take the risk. If it’s any consolation, he won’t bomb Iran for the exact same reason. That’s the “it takes a Nixon to go to China” phenominon. The problem here, and I suppose we agree on this, is that Bibi is no Nixon. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/60 "2011-01-25T18:08:37Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I dont believe any Israel lobby dictates the US’s foreign policies. Cutting off the US backup to Israel would certainly play a role in forcing the latter to consider real sacrifices for peace’s sake. But the mentality regarding the peace process is Israeli, not American. Take off the Israel lobby in the us, and I’m not sure we’d still see a real peace process in our lifetime. What if we replaced our aid for Israel with aid for Palestinians? What if we give the Palestinians 5 decades of military aid and see what the resulting negotiating power would be. Perhaps the settlements in East Jerusalem wouldn’t seem so important. The Israelis are insisting on an inequitable resolution because they think they have negotiating power based on their military advantage. We would be having a very different conversation if we hadn’t been providing Israel with military assistance for decades. Of course we had our own reasons for providing taht assistance but more and more of it has been the result of outfits like AIPAC rather than legitimate US interests. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808.md?page=4)