# Al-Jazeera broadcasting leaked "Palestine Papers" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 24, 2011, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808 "2011-01-24T17:31:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/61 "2011-01-25T18:11:10Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Huh…and here I was going to say Palestinian violence against the Jews in the region prior to the formation of Israel, and Palestinian refusal to abide by the UN partition of the region into two separate, sovereign nations and the subsequent war for survival that Israel was forced to fight and… > > Well, it goes on and on. There are two sides to any story, and you seem to only be familiar with a skewed version of one of those sides. To me, there is no real beginning to the cycle, since it goes back for decades or even centuries…sort of like the conflicts in Ireland. At a certain point it’s not profitable to keep bringing up Oooo killled Oooo, or who’s castle burned down and fell into the swamp first. > > -XT If you have a military occupation of another people/people’s land then the occupiers are inviting reaction. It’s as simple as that. ---
**Author:** ![Dick\_Dastardly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c4cdca/32.png) [@Dick\_Dastardly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dick_Dastardly)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/62 "2011-01-25T18:13:20Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > I believe that the distinction was that in March 2008 what was suspended was the series of negotiations that had been ongoing on the ‘roadmap’, and in December 2008 all direct negotiation itself was suspended. > > In before: “But they said that was designed to freeze the peace process until things improved, preserving it in ‘formaldehyde’. That just shows that they were ending the peace process” > > And again, standard fact checking: > [The vast majority of land of “historic Palestine” is owned by Jordan, not Israel.](http://www.mideastweb.org/Middle-East-Encyclopedia/british_mandate_palestine.htm) Midesatweb. Yeah. The 22% thing is the standard way that most people/newspapers etc. around the world refer to the bits of land currently known as the Palestinian territories. But whatever, let’s say it’s 22% of the combined Israel/Palestinian territory land mass. Whatever makes you happy. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/63 "2011-01-25T18:15:39Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > What if we replaced our aid for Israel with aid for Palestinians? > > What if we give the Palestinians 5 decades of military aid and see what the resulting negotiating power would be. Perhaps the settlements in East Jerusalem wouldn’t seem so important. The Israelis are insisting on an inequitable resolution because they think they have negotiating power based on their military advantage. > > We would be having a very different conversation if we hadn’t been providing Israel with military assistance for decades. Of course we had our own reasons for providing taht assistance but more and more of it has been the result of outfits like AIPAC rather than legitimate US interests. Again, this far over-estimates the impact of US aid. It’s a military fanasy to ever suppose that the Palestinians could, on their own, pose any sort of existential military threat to Israel, however equipped. If the Egyptians and Syrians couldn’t do it when outfitted by the Soviets, and together with the Palestinians and Jordanians and others, at a time when Israel was _not_ receiving any US aid, there is simply no way on earth the Palestinians will ever pose a realistic threat on their own. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/64 "2011-01-25T18:16:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > There are two sides to any story, and you seem to only be familiar with a skewed version of one of those sides. To me, there is no real beginning to the cycle, since it goes back for decades or even centuries…sort of like the conflicts in Ireland. At a certain point it’s not profitable to keep bringing up Oooo killled Oooo, or who’s castle burned down and fell into the swamp first. > > -XT I think the Israeli side of the story is pretty well represented on this board and in the mainstream media. I don’t think that we are missing too many of those arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/65 "2011-01-25T18:21:42Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Does official or almost-official Israeli policy really understand that an independent Palestine necessarily would control its own borders with Jordan **and** Egypt? And that trade with both would be important to its economy, and would necessarily create a lot of trade/shipping between the WB and Gaza? And that, therefore, Palestine would quite reasonably demand a right of free passage across Israeli territory between Gaza and the WB, at least for commercial purposes? (The passage might be limited to a designated route.) It’s understood that that’s going to happen at some point down the road, once Israel feels that its safety has been reasonably guaranteed. At this point in time, however, Israel is at war with “Hamastan”, and is employing a military blockade as part of its war efforts. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/66 "2011-01-25T18:23:07Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I think the Israeli side of the story is pretty well represented on this board and in the mainstream media. > > I don’t think that we are missing too many of those arguments. I think the Palestinian side of the story is also represented perfectly well in mainstream media. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/67 "2011-01-25T18:24:04Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Again, this far over-estimates the impact of US aid. It’s a military fanasy to ever suppose that the Palestinians could, on their own, pose any sort of existential military threat to Israel, however equipped. If the Egyptians and Syrians couldn’t do it when outfitted by the Soviets, and together with the Palestinians and Jordanians and others, at a time when Israel was _not_ receiving any US aid, there is simply no way on earth the Palestinians will ever pose a realistic threat on their own. So are you saying that if the US had sided with the Palestinians, funding their military and providing them with the military edge over the last 60 years, israel would more or less be in the same situation they find themselves in today? I think the US has been instrumental creating the balance of power that currently exists in the Middle East. I think that it was probably in US interests to have a powerful Israel in the middle East but I don’t know what purpose Israel serves in US foreign policy in a post-cold war world and I think that without AIPAC, we would have stopped funding them under Clinton. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/68 "2011-01-25T18:26:58Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Again, this far over-estimates the impact of US aid. It’s a military fanasy to ever suppose that the Palestinians could, on their own, pose any sort of existential military threat to Israel, however equipped. If the Egyptians and Syrians couldn’t do it when outfitted by the Soviets, and together with the Palestinians and Jordanians and others, at a time when Israel was _not_ receiving any US aid, there is simply no way on earth the Palestinians will ever pose a realistic threat on their own. Which means the whole “we cant make peace with Palestinians till we feel secure”, or “we cant negotiate with the Hamas because they have a _Death to Israel_ article in their charter” is pure and simple bullshit. You cant have the cake and eat it. If Israel has overbearing military superiority, then they can make peace whenever they want. Now, the Israeli reasoning is more “we’ll negociate when we dont have superiority anymore”. Talk about a conundrum. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/69 "2011-01-25T18:27:34Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I think the Palestinian side of the story is also represented perfectly well in mainstream media. It is moreso now but this has nto always been the case. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s without any idea why the crazy arabs were blowing themselves up. It was pretty onesided. I think the focus on the middle east became more nuanced after 9/11 when we realized that the shitstorm we kick up there can reach our shores. I’ve made connections between 9/11 and the Palestinian refugee crisis in the past (and been shouted down as an anti-semite by one poster in particular), but I think the connection between the two are significant, certainly more significant than any connection between 9/11 and Saddam Hussein. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/70 "2011-01-25T18:31:49Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > So are you saying that if the US had sided with the Palestinians, funding their military and providing them with the military edge over the last 60 years, israel would more or less be in the same situation they find themselves in today? > > I think the US has been instrumental creating the balance of power that currently exists in the Middle East. I think that it was probably in US interests to have a powerful Israel in the middle East but I don’t know what purpose Israel serves in US foreign policy in a post-cold war world and I think that without AIPAC, we would have stopped funding them under Clinton. I’m saying that no conceivable amount of funding & support would make the Palestinians a credible, existential threat to Israel today. You cannot create military effectiveness by simply shoving money at a country - this is a lesson learned over and over again by both superpowers during the Cold War. Both of them attempted (and failed) to do just that - consider that Soviet aid over years to Egypt quite failed to turn Egypt into a match for Israel, and Egypt has many multiples of the inherent resources available to the Palestinians. This at a time when Israel lacked any aid from the US. Israel _without_ aid would be more than a match for Palestine _with_ aid. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/71 "2011-01-25T18:37:24Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Which means the whole “we cant make peace with Palestinians till we feel secure”, or “we cant negotiate with the Hamas because they have a _Death to Israel_ article in their charter” is pure and simple bullshit. You cant have the cake and eat it. > If Israel has overbearing military superiority, then they can make peace whenever they want. > Now, the Israeli reasoning is more “we’ll negociate when we dont have superiority anymore”. > Talk about a conundrum. Nonsense. Israelis are not worried and never have been by the Palestinians posing an existential threat, as in, having the ability to (on their own) invade and militarily defeat Israel. They are worried, and rightly, about on-going terrorism, random rocket attacks and bombings. They are also worried about the ability of the Palestinian cause to be used as the rallying-point for a wider coallition against them by others in the ME. The US did not invade Afganistan because (lord help us) the Afganis posed an existential threat to the US, but because their then leaders refused to hand over the terrorists who masterminded the bombing of the WTC. Posing an existential threat is not the only way to pose a threat. Edit: I did not understand **Damuri Ajashi** ’s proposal as being that the US ought to equip the palestinians to more effectively carry out terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/72 "2011-01-25T18:39:42Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > It is moreso now but this has nto always been the case. I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s without any idea why the crazy arabs were blowing themselves up. It was pretty onesided. God, you Americans can be so provincial smetimes. When I said “mainstream media”, I meant the mainstream \*global \*media, not those news networks that happen to operate in the U.S. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/73 "2011-01-25T18:43:22Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > If Israel has overbearing military superiority, then they can make peace whenever they want. Overwhelming military superiority is not much use against terrorism. Israel can say, “for every one of us you kill, we’ll kill ten of yours”, and the Palestinians will go ahead and kill one Israeli. And then the world will condemn Israel for killing ten Palestinians. So tell me, how does overwhelming military superiority help us keep that one Israeli alive? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/74 "2011-01-25T18:51:58Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > What? Okay, fine, Israel or Qatar. It’s a rule of thumb. I’m not saying you can’t trust them, I’m saying on those subjects, check twice. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/75 "2011-01-25T18:52:22Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I’ve made connections between 9/11 and the Palestinian refugee crisis in the past (and been shouted down as an anti-semite by one poster in particular) No, you haven’t. In fact, IIRC, the last time you claimed you’d been accused of “anti-Semitism” the only link you could provide was to a factual refutation and no accusation of racism, at all. I’d wager that this is much the same. Got cite? > [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I grew up in the 70’s and 80’s without any idea why the crazy arabs were blowing themselves up. Your ignorance is probably not someone else’s fault, however. Black September at Munich in 1972. Hardly lacked for press. Achille Lauro 1985. Hardly lacked for press. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > Which means the whole “we cant make peace with Palestinians till we feel secure”, or “we cant negotiate with the Hamas because they have a _Death to Israel_ article in their charter” is pure and simple bullshit. No, it means that you’re playing word-games and conflating demands that the government will crack down on terrorism and genocidal incitement, and there won’t be rockets launched into Israeli territory with a lack of an existential-threat. As for not negotiating with an entity like Hamas which repeatedly (not just in their charter) states that they will one day destroy your nation and commit genocide against your citizens and that they’re never going to recognize your right to exist, readers can figure out why that’s “bullshit”, I suppose. > [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > If Israel has overbearing military superiority, then they can make peace whenever they want. Do explain how that military superiority effectively stops campaigns of, say, suicide bombings. Explain how it allows them to “make peace” if Hamas et al will still launch attacks. What sort of “peace” is it if it’s typified by one side attacking the other? > [@Dick\_Dastardly](#): > > Midesatweb. Yeah. Facts. Yeah. The fact is interesting, naturally, as you used the 22% figure despite its dramatic inaccuracy. Jordan actually fought a civil war over the fact that many Palestinians saw Jordan as a Palestinian state, being as how it was the largest territory carved out of “historic Palestine”, even larger considering it conquered the West Bank in '48 and the prevented an independent Palestinian state from being formed on it. Jordan now sits on the vast majority of what was “historic Palestine”, [and has recently been stripping some of its Palestinian population of citizenship](http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=167512). Interesting how Jordan always gets left out of such calculations. Just like Kuwait gets left out of discussion even though after the Gulf War it caused a refugee problem roughly equal to that caused in '67. Such is life, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/76 "2011-01-25T19:13:21Z")
> [@Capitaine\_Zombie](#): > > I dont believe any Israel lobby dictates the US’s foreign policies. Cutting off the US backup to Israel would certainly play a role in forcing the latter to consider real sacrifices for peace’s sake. But the mentality regarding the peace process is Israeli, not American. Take off the Israel lobby in the us, and I’m not sure we’d still see a real peace process in our lifetime. You may recall a traveling official of the US government, who over a year ago stated in Egypt that US policy was to accept no further Israelis “settling” in the West Bank. “Who is this guy” asked the Israelis. “We, and not this guy, make US policy in the Middle East”. Sure enough, the guy is forced into a humiliating backdown and becomes an object of global derision. He adopts the traditional posture of obsequious fawning to the Israelis. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/77 "2011-01-25T19:13:42Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Overwhelming military superiority is not much use against terrorism. Israel can say, “for every one of us you kill, we’ll kill ten of yours”, and the Palestinians will go ahead and kill one Israeli. And then the world will condemn Israel for killing ten Palestinians. About which Israel doesnt give a rat’s ass. So, what was your point here? Last major operation wasnt ten Palestinians for an Israeli, it was more than 250 for one Israeli. Palestinian stock value is going down. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/78 "2011-01-25T19:16:44Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Huh…and here I was going to say Palestinian violence against the Jews in the region prior to the formation of Israel, and Palestinian refusal to abide by the UN partition of the region into two separate, sovereign nations and the subsequent war for survival that Israel was forced to fight and… > > Well, it goes on and on. There are two sides to any story, and you seem to only be familiar with a skewed version of one of those sides. To me, there is no real beginning to the cycle, since it goes back for decades or even centuries…sort of like the conflicts in Ireland. At a certain point it’s not profitable to keep bringing up Oooo killled Oooo, or who’s castle burned down and fell into the swamp first. > > -XT The US has in turn been bombed with Israeli propaganda to the point of saturation, for decades. In the face of which the easy option has been to surrender. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/79 "2011-01-25T19:18:42Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > “Who is this guy” asked the Israelis. “We, and not this guy, make US policy in the Middle East”. So does this match the qualifications for a ZOG accusation? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808/80 "2011-01-25T19:27:43Z")
[QUOTE=Damuri Ajashi] I think the Israeli side of the story is pretty well represented on this board and in the mainstream media. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Dick Dastardly] If you have a military occupation of another people/people’s land then the occupiers are inviting reaction. It’s as simple as that. [/QUOTE] :dubious: And yet this type of simplistic horseshit gets constantly tossed in with hardly a ripple…and would probably not make a ripple if asserted in most places in either the US or Europe. Interesting that if the ‘Israeli side’ has been adequately portrayed either on this board or by the MSM that this level of willful ignorance still persists, don’t you think? [QUOTE=Sevastopol] The US has in turn been bombed with Israeli propaganda to the point of saturation, for decades. In the face of which the easy option has been to surrender. [/QUOTE] 😛 -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-jazeera-broadcasting-leaked-palestine-papers/568808.md?page=5)