# Al-Masri held, tortured, 150 days;60 AFTER cleared; are we shitheads yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645 "2005-12-08T09:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/1 "2005-12-08T09:48:27Z")
[http://www.forbes.com/business/services/feeds/ap/2005/12/07/ap2375481.html](http://www.forbes.com/business/services/feeds/ap/2005/12/07/ap2375481.html) A german citizen was kidnapped, “\*rendered”, and interrogated aggressively for 5 months. (\*this being Germany, prudence dictates a reference to the term of art:“To render a suspect” over into the hands of some other government. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the extraction of useful lipids from their colloidal intermixture with flesh) Unfortunately, some ignorant airport employee mistook one arab name for an entirely different one. Bad enough, you say? Once snatched by mistake, it’s not easy to get released… For two extra months, he continued in confinement, while the agencies in question tried to figure out how best to handle the coming shitstorm. If you defend “extraordinary rendition” please compare and contrast YOUR model program with this reality. Does this history affect your committment to American Exceptionalism, (the doctrine that we are not obliged to follow the rules that bind lesser powers, because of our inherent goodness, nd the responsibilities of being world cop) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/2 "2005-12-08T13:29:58Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > For two extra months, he continued in confinement, while the agencies in question tried to figure out how best to handle the coming shitstorm. I like their ultimate conclusion on the best way to deal with their mistake: > [@](#): > > Yet he wasn’t released for two months, when **he was dumped on a deserted road in Albania** , al-Masri says. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/3 "2005-12-08T13:37:09Z")
obviously they were laying the foundation for an alien abduction defense… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/4 "2005-12-08T14:32:33Z")
{ Dubya mode } Look, we’re Amurricans. Real Amurricans not like them Communo-Amurricans in the blue states. And we can’t be expected to get all teary-eyed over the friendly hi-jinks (not torture, just ask Condi Rice) we engaged in with some German with a suspiciously arabic name who knows the location of the atomic bomb that will blow up a major Amurrican red-state city in the next 24 hours, just because he’s not the right guy and didn’t know. If he’d been any halfway decent sort of terrorist, he SHOULDA knowed all this stuff. As it is he’s an Arab, so he’s kinda used to being tort … er, hi-jinked. You can’t destroy terrorism without breaking eggs. And legs. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/5 "2005-12-08T14:46:50Z")
A nitpick: This doesn’t concern the US’ policy of “extraordinary rendition” because the rendition in this case was from Macedonia _to_ the US. The usual cases of extraordinary rendition that were the subject of debate these last years were \*from \* the US’ custody to states with sufficiently flexible policies on torture. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/6 "2005-12-08T14:59:29Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > A nitpick: This doesn’t concern the US’ policy of “extraordinary rendition” because the rendition in this case was from Macedonia _to_ the US. The usual cases of extraordinary rendition that were the subject of debate these last years were \*from \* the US’ custody to states with sufficiently flexible policies on torture. When the reality is that a citizen of another country was kidnapped, tortured, held for two months even though he was known to be the wrong guy and then abandoned in the middle of Albania the correct response is outrage not ‘nitpick’. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/7 "2005-12-08T15:01:01Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > A nitpick: This doesn’t concern the US’ policy of “extraordinary rendition” because the rendition in this case was from Macedonia _to_ the US. Afghanistan is a US state now? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/8 "2005-12-08T15:02:56Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > When the reality is that a citizen of another country was kidnapped, tortured, held for two months even though he was known to be the wrong guy and then abandoned in the middle of Albania the correct response is outrage not ‘nitpick’. It is here. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/9 "2005-12-08T15:16:30Z")
I’m sorry – could someone direct me to the portion of the story in which the United States is responsible for this? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/10 "2005-12-08T15:24:23Z")
Which part? The abduction, torture or abandonment? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/11 "2005-12-08T15:25:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry – could someone direct me to the portion of the story in which the United States is responsible for this? I think Condi sorta let the cat outta the bag when she apologized to Andrea Merkel for al-Masri’s kidnapping. I mean, if we didn’t do it, why was she apologizing? ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/12 "2005-12-08T15:27:32Z")
Well, there’s the first paragraph > [@](#): > > A U.S. diplomat informed Germany’s interior minister in 2004 that a German citizen claimed to have been mistakenly abducted by the CIA, the government said Wednesday. Last I heard, the CIA was an American thing. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/13 "2005-12-08T15:32:53Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry – could someone direct me to the portion of the story in which the United States is responsible for this? That’s right. The whole world is kidnapping people and holding them in Afghanistan whilst pretending to be Americans. As well as nitpicking - wilful denial and obtuse legalising when the facts are known to anyone who really wants to know is also not an appropriate response. [Germany say Rice apologised](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4504292.stm) > [@](#): > > The case was discussed earlier in Berlin by the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and Secretary of State Rice. > > Mrs Merkel said the US acknowledged making a mistake in detaining Mr Masri. > > While refusing to comment on the case directly, Ms Rice said the US sought to rectify any mistakes made. > > Both told reporters that intelligence work was an essential part of the war on terror, but should not break international law. > > Before she left the US, Ms Rice admitted that terror suspects were flown abroad for interrogation but denied they were tortured. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/14 "2005-12-08T15:39:04Z")
And let’s not forget Maher Arar, a Syrian-born Canadian citizen, who was dispatched to Syria and tortured thanks to INS. He was released a year later after somebody figured out he was innocent. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/15 "2005-12-08T15:53:45Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > When the reality is that a citizen of another country was kidnapped, tortured, held for two months even though he was known to be the wrong guy and then abandoned in the middle of Albania the correct response is outrage not ‘nitpick’. Sorry if I gave the impression of casting this as an occasion for quibbling, but - why the outrage, _now_? The case was in the German press in _January_, with occasional updates on the prosecutors’ progress (not surprisingly they didn’t get any names of people to indict yet), and diplomatic inquiries to the US for the rest of this year. Cases of innocent people being sent to Gitmo and other US installations, and cases of extraordinary renditions e.g. to Syria, obviously for purposes of torture, were public knowledge for _years_. Why is this an issue now when nothing has changed? > [@Fear Itself](#): > > Afghanistan is a US state now? The rest of the world doesn’t make this fine distinction between “in US custody, within the US” and “in US custody, in an US installation outside of the US”. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/16 "2005-12-08T15:58:00Z")
The guy’s name is Khaled al-Masri, and he was detained because his name sounded similar to that of a wanted terrorist. Now the stupid part - Khaled is a very common Arabic name, and al-Masri is either a very common Arabic name or a very common identifier of origin used in the place of a name (literally meaning “the Egyptian”). It’s the Arabic equivalent of John Smith. That is, they detained a guy based on his name, which was an incredibly common one, with no other reasons to do so. > [@Bricker](#): > > I’m sorry – could someone direct me to the portion of the story in which the United States is responsible for this? What kind of pathetic attempt at an argument are you trying for? Whose CIA exactly took the guy to Afghanistan? **Bricker** , you’re smarter than this. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/17 "2005-12-08T15:59:37Z")
Let’s also remember Mamdouh Habib, an Australian, rendered to Egypt and tortured, then falsely imprisoned in Guantanamo for two - three years, before being released with no charges laid. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/18 "2005-12-08T16:01:00Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > Sorry if I gave the impression of casting this as an occasion for quibbling, but - why the outrage, _now_? The case was in the German press in _January_, with occasional updates on the prosecutors’ progress (not surprisingly they didn’t get any names of people to indict yet), and diplomatic inquiries to the US for the rest of this year. Cases of innocent people being sent to Gitmo and other US installations, and cases of extraordinary renditions e.g. to Syria, obviously for purposes of torture, were public knowledge for _years_. Why is this an issue now when nothing has changed? > > The rest of the world doesn’t make this fine distinction between “in US custody, within the US” and “in US custody, in an US installation outside of the US”. Because of all the current outrage over secret prisons in Europe and the fact he’s now suing the US Govt I guess. There’s never a wrong time to hold a democratic govt’s feet to the fire over abduction and torture. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/19 "2005-12-08T16:09:55Z")
> [@Tapioca Dextrin](#): > > Well, there’s the first paragraph > > Last I heard, the CIA was an American thing. Yes, that’s true. I’m suggesting that the evidence for the CIA’s involvement is slight: this guy claims they were CIA. He doesn’t say how he knows they were CIA. He could be lying. Or he could be telling the truth as he knows it, but the people that abducted him could be lying. There is no indication of what he based his sense that they were CIA agents on. > [@](#): > > As well as nitpicking - wilful denial and obtuse legalising when the facts are known to anyone who really wants to know is also not an appropriate response. Oh, they’re known to anyone who wants to know, eh? Well, bucko, this is a message board devoted to fighting ignorance. So let’s start with my ignorance of this topic that everyone knows. Direct me, please, to the evidence that proves what you’re saying, the stuff that everyone knows. > [@](#): > > Germany say Rice apologised > > The case was discussed earlier in Berlin by the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, and Secretary of State Rice. > > Mrs Merkel said the US acknowledged making a mistake in detaining Mr Masri. > > \*\*While refusing to comment on the case directly, Ms Rice said the US sought to rectify any mistakes made. > \*\* > Both told reporters that intelligence work was an essential part of the war on terror, but should not break international law. > > Before she left the US, Ms Rice admitted that terror suspects were flown abroad for interrogation but denied they were tortured. I don’t see an admission there as regards al-Masri. I see a statement that it’s happened in general, but that torture wasn’t involved. I accept that. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/20 "2005-12-08T16:10:56Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > The guy’s name is Khaled al-Masri, and he was detained because his name sounded similar to that of a wanted terrorist. Now the stupid part - Khaled is a very common Arabic name, and al-Masri is either a very common Arabic name or a very common identifier of origin used in the place of a name (literally meaning “the Egyptian”). It’s the Arabic equivalent of John Smith. > > That is, they detained a guy based on his name, which was an incredibly common one, with no other reasons to do so. > > What kind of pathetic attempt at an argument are you trying for? Whose CIA exactly took the guy to Afghanistan? **Bricker** , you’re smarter than this. And the evidence that these guys were CIA is… what, exactly? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=2)