# Al-Masri held, tortured, 150 days;60 AFTER cleared; are we shitheads yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645 "2005-12-08T09:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/21 "2005-12-08T16:15:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, that’s true. I’m suggesting that the evidence for the CIA’s involvement is slight: this guy claims they were CIA. He doesn’t say how he knows they were CIA. > > He could be lying. Or he could be telling the truth as he knows it, but the people that abducted him could be lying. > > There is no indication of what he based his sense that they were CIA agents on. > > Oh, they’re known to anyone who wants to know, eh? > > Well, bucko, this is a message board devoted to fighting ignorance. So let’s start with my ignorance of this topic that everyone knows. > > Direct me, please, to the evidence that proves what you’re saying, the stuff that everyone knows. > > I don’t see an admission there as regards al-Masri. I see a statement that it’s happened in general, but that torture wasn’t involved. I accept that. how about the line above your bolding? Or is the new right-wing German Chancellor lying? When the US Govt has admitted the mistake it’s time for even the most rabid of Bush-bots to admit defeat. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/22 "2005-12-08T16:18:18Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Oh, they’re known to anyone who wants to know, eh? > > Well, bucko, this is a message board devoted to fighting ignorance. So let’s start with my ignorance of this topic that everyone knows. Stop please, the irony is killing me. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/23 "2005-12-08T16:22:10Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > Stop please, the irony is killing me. We are here to fight Ignorance, not Wilful Ignorance so i’ll refer you to Google. The story and others has been world news on and off for months. Anyone interested enough in the subject to enter the debate is expected to be informed and not expected to use others to be their personal researchers. The Fight Against Ignorance Begins At Home. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/24 "2005-12-08T16:24:40Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > how about the line above your bolding? Or is the new right-wing German Chancellor lying? > > When the US Govt has admitted the mistake it’s time for even the most rabid of Bush-bots to admit defeat. Ms Rice did not make an admission about this case. She acknowledged that it had happened to other people. Is the thrust of your argument that because it was done before, it’s automatically true this time? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/25 "2005-12-08T16:26:26Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > We are here to fight Ignorance, not Wilful Ignorance so i’ll refer you to Google. > > The story and others has been world news on and off for months. Anyone interested enough in the subject to enter the debate is expected to be informed and not expected to use others to be their personal researchers. > > The Fight Against Ignorance Begins At Home. I have googled the name al-Masri. I haven’t found any evidence, apart from his claim, that he was abducted by CIA agents, and I haven’t found any indication of what he bases his idea that they were CIA agents on. So if it’s so ubiqitous, why don’t YOU start Googling and link me to one piece of evidence? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/26 "2005-12-08T16:29:10Z")
Nah, he’s right, let’s wait for those stand-up guys in CIA to own up to wrongdoing before we get all in a snit. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/27 "2005-12-08T16:29:34Z")
Anyone know what form this alleged torture took? I read the story in my local paper, and IIRC he claims to have been beaten while being arrested. The rest of it is some statements about “harsh interrogation”, but no specifics. Are we talking thumbscrews and rubber hoses here, or “he yelled at me really loud and I was really scared”? If we are going to lump everything beyond a “pretty please, with cream and sugar, tell us all about al-Queda” as torture, fine, but maybe a bit of clarification is in order. Assuming that this really happened, and isn’t just something his lawyer thought up after abu Gharib. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/28 "2005-12-08T16:31:22Z")
That only matters if there’s a level you’re willing to call acceptable, **Shodan**. Is there? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/29 "2005-12-08T16:31:50Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > Nah, he’s right, let’s wait for those stand-up guys in CIA to own up to wrongdoing before we get all in a snit. Is this your idea of debate? Before I can reply, I have to build an actual argument to reply to? It appears to me that you’re saying that _I’M_ saying the only way to assess blame against the CIA is if the CIA itself admits its acts. Before I respond to that argument, I’d like to know if it’s what you meant. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/30 "2005-12-08T16:34:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have googled the name al-Masri. I haven’t found any evidence, apart from his claim, that he was abducted by CIA agents, and I haven’t found any indication of what he bases his idea that they were CIA agents on. > > So if it’s so ubiqitous, why don’t YOU start Googling and link me to one piece of evidence? [Here’s the civil lawsuit filed by the ACLU on this matter.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=6876287&postcount=121) This is the case I’ve been posting about in **aleric** ’s thread on whether or not anyone in the Bush administration will be tried. Although there is no proof that the CIA was involved, it seems pretty clear that it was them. Certainly the Europeans think so, and the US has never denied involvedment. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/31 "2005-12-08T16:37:42Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And the evidence that these guys were CIA is… what, exactly? [Here’s his complaint](http://www.aclu.org/images/extraordinaryrendition/asset_upload_file829_22211.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/32 "2005-12-08T16:40:27Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Ms Rice did not make an admission about this case. She acknowledged that it had happened to other people. When did you appoint yourself this administration’s counsel? The job is already filled, I’m sure. You don’t apologize for something you haven’t done, even indirectly, especially not if you’re a senior official in \*this \* administration. Please. As for your pettifoggery about how we know it was the US government doing it, since you apparently picture yourself in court (in the role of Perry Mason perhaps), it seems you can offer some actual reasonable doubt, some other hypothesis as to who else might have done it? Or can you suggest with a straight face that his questioners never said what they were questioning him about, and on whose behalf? Or, as you suggest, perhaps he’s lying. He just abruptly left Afghanistan to go on a three-month drinkin’-and-whorin’ bender in Macedonia, and this is his cover story. Gawdamighty, man, is there \*no \* limit for you? ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/33 "2005-12-08T16:40:58Z")
You quoted and bolded earlier **Bricker** > [@](#): > > Mrs Merkel said the US acknowledged making a mistake in detaining Mr Masri. > > **While refusing to comment on the case directly, Ms Rice said the US sought to rectify any mistakes made.** The sentence above the bit you bolded says that the US acknowledged detaining Masri. Rice wouldn’t talk about the case specifically but it seems she at least admitted that it was the US who detained him. Or are you saying that Mrs Merkel is lying? ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/34 "2005-12-08T16:41:21Z")
_Curse you, John Mace!!! Damn you all to hell!!!_ ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/35 "2005-12-08T16:42:17Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I have googled the name al-Masri. I haven’t found any evidence, apart from his claim, that he was abducted by CIA agents, and I haven’t found any indication of what he bases his idea that they were CIA agents on. > > So if it’s so ubiqitous, why don’t YOU start Googling and link me to one piece of evidence? I’m not responsible for your alleged lack of Googling skills and to repeat myself, I’m not here to pander to your wilful ignorance. The US has apologised - a diplomat and now Rice. It is responsible. You play your little word games if you like, you’re fooling no one except the usual apologists. i’m no longer pandering to the hijacking of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/36 "2005-12-08T16:42:23Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are we talking thumbscrews and rubber hoses here, or “he yelled at me really loud and I was really scared”? If we are going to lump everything beyond a “pretty please, with cream and sugar, tell us all about al-Queda” as torture, fine, but maybe a bit of clarification is in order. So beating an innocent for 5 months and then dumping him god knows where is…fine? Acceptable? Justified? I’m at a loss here. At what point would it be right to do this to someone? ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/37 "2005-12-08T16:49:55Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > [Here’s his complaint](http://www.aclu.org/images/extraordinaryrendition/asset_upload_file829_22211.pdf). I’ve now read his complaint. Can you identify the numbered paragraphs within his complaint that provide any evidence, other than his own account, that the people responsible for his abduction were CIA? Can you identify the basis for his belief that the abduction was done at the behest of the CIA, other than a generic “they do stuff like this”? Has the CIA or Mr. Tenet filed a response in which they deny the allegations in the complaint? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/38 "2005-12-08T16:54:38Z")
Given US behaviour with respect to other innocents denied due process and mistreated there’s little reason to give the US the benefit of the doubt. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/39 "2005-12-08T16:55:28Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > I’m not responsible for your alleged lack of Googling skills and to repeat myself, I’m not here to pander to your wilful ignorance. The US has apologised - a diplomat and now Rice. It is responsible. > > You play your little word games if you like, you’re fooling no one except the usual apologists. i’m no longer pandering to the hijacking of this thread. No… the US and Rice have apologize IN GENERAL for operating programs that use “extraordinary rendition.” They have not apologized for this particular case, nor have they admitted they did it. It’s as if a burglar is caught operating in your neighborhood and admits to several burglaries. “Ah ha!” you say. “My home was burglarized, and the crook they just caught is the guy!” “How do you know?” I ask. “Because,” you respond impatiently, “he admitted it!” “Admitted burglarizing your house, specifically?” “HE ADMITTED BEING A BURGLAR! THAT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR ME!” “But…” “WILFUL IGNORANCE! THAT’S WHAT YOU HAVE!” ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/40 "2005-12-08T16:57:57Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > The sentence above the bit you bolded says that the US acknowledged detaining Masri. Rice wouldn’t talk about the case specifically but it seems she at least admitted that it was the US who detained him. Or are you saying that Mrs Merkel is lying? I read that as Mrs. Merkel’s interpretation of “mistakes were made,” not as an indication of a separate, unquoted admission on Ms. Rice’s part. What words of Rice, _specifically_, is Merkel relying upon to say that the US admitted detaining Masri? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=3)