# Al-Masri held, tortured, 150 days;60 AFTER cleared; are we shitheads yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645 "2005-12-08T09:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![SuaSponte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SuaSponte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SuaSponte)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/41 "2005-12-08T17:03:17Z")
**Bricker** , are you arguing that al-Masri may be lying, and was never detained, or are you arguing that some other organization (governmental or nongovernmental, US or foreign) may have detained him, flew him around the world, and dumped him in Albania? Sua ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/42 "2005-12-08T17:10:09Z")
You guys are missing a key point. Here’s the line in the story that makes it clear it was about al-Masri: > [@](#): > > Mrs Merkel said the US acknowledged making a mistake in detaining Mr Masri. Now, this is hearsay, but unless friend Bricker wants to groundlessly accuse Merkel of lying, we have the fact that the US apologized for detaining **Mr. Masri.** Not people in general, _Mr. Masri._ Why would Condi apoligize on behalf of the US if the US weren’t behind it? Really, you’ve chosen a very weak position to defend here, Bricker. Generally, you’re smarter than this. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/43 "2005-12-08T17:14:19Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > I read that as Mrs. Merkel’s interpretation of “mistakes were made,” not as an indication of a separate, unquoted admission on Ms. Rice’s part. > > What words of Rice, _specifically_, is Merkel relying upon to say that the US admitted detaining Masri? Tell you what, read [this](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476_pf.html). Now what are you saying? There is no proof of torture I’ll give you but are you really saying that the US didn’t detain this man, find later that he was innocent as then release him? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/44 "2005-12-08T17:15:52Z")
Yo, **Bricker** : [http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7591918/](http://msnbc.msn.com/id/7591918/) Not smoking guns, but they’ve at least got “intelligence sources” confirming that it was, indeed, the CIA, eg: > [@](#): > > But in Washington, sources say, in mid April, officals called a special meeting at the CIA to brief director George Tenet. An officer quotes Tenet as saying, “You’ve got an innocent guy in the Salt Pit?” Tenet said El-Masri should be released. > > By May, sources say National Security Council Director Condoleezza Rice learned of the mistake and ordered El-Masri’s immediate release. She said as well that the German government should be told of the incident, for diplomatic reasons. But that didn’t end the case. About two weeks later, Rice learned El-Masri was still being held and ordered him released again. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/45 "2005-12-08T17:17:58Z")
To be fair on the Mrs Merkel point I’ve just noticed in another story on this I read > [@](#): > > But US officials denied Ms Merkel’s claim that Ms Rice had apologised for the treatment of Mr Masri. “We are not quite sure what was in her head,” said one. [http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article331616.ece](http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article331616.ece) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/46 "2005-12-08T17:19:45Z")
Of course if you believe THAT US offical why don’t you believe all the other officals in the other news stories that say this shit happened 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/47 "2005-12-08T17:22:34Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > **Bricker** , are you arguing that al-Masri may be lying, and was never detained, or are you arguing that some other organization (governmental or nongovernmental, US or foreign) may have detained him, flew him around the world, and dumped him in Albania? > > Sua The two are not mutually exclusive. I’m arguing that one or other may be true, and asking to see evidence which refutes either possibility. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/48 "2005-12-08T17:23:35Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > You guys are missing a key point. Here’s the line in the story that makes it clear it was about al-Masri: > > Now, this is hearsay, but unless friend Bricker wants to groundlessly accuse Merkel of lying, we have the fact that the US apologized for detaining **Mr. Masri.** Not people in general, _Mr. Masri._ Why would Condi apoligize on behalf of the US if the US weren’t behind it? > > Really, you’ve chosen a very weak position to defend here, Bricker. Generally, you’re smarter than this. That didn’t happen: [http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article331616.ece](http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article331616.ece) ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/49 "2005-12-08T17:24:56Z")
[More from the WaPo](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476_pf.html): > [@](#): > > The Masri case, with **new details gleaned from interviews with current and former intelligence and diplomatic officials** , offers a rare study of how pressure on the CIA to apprehend al Qaeda members after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks has led in some instances to detention based on thin or speculative evidence. The case also shows how complicated it can be to correct errors in a system built and operated in secret. More anonymous sources again, but since this _is_ the CIA we’re talking about here, do you really expect them to issue a press release? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/50 "2005-12-08T17:28:07Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Can you identify the numbered paragraphs within his complaint that provide any evidence, other than his own account, that the people responsible for his abduction were CIA? That’s a bizarre standard. The document is, by its nature, his own account and does not provide evidence. Do you fault all statements of claim because they don’t contain a full description of the actual evidence to appear in the case itself? Do you contend that he is lying? If so, what is your explanation for his disapparence for many months? If not, are you arguing that they were a paramilitary / intelligence group composed primarily of American nationals with the means and willingness to transport a man to Afghanistan, torture and interrogate him, yet that they were not CIA? > [@](#): > > a generic “they do stuff like this”? The allegations in al-Masri’s statement of claim fit the general alleged modus operandi of the CIA eg use of black-dressed paramilitary members, cutting off clothes and reclothing the detainee, transport on an American civilian aeroplane, detainment in an American base in a foreign country, torture, interrogation. > [@](#): > > Has the CIA or Mr. Tenet filed a response in which they deny the allegations in the complaint? The complaint was filed 2 days ago. Do such responses generally occur within such a time frame? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/51 "2005-12-08T17:31:38Z")
I’m really fed-up with these semantic games. So, people are arguing here that maybe the torture wasn’t that hard, or that though the USA admited that it happened to other people, maybe it didn’t happen to this guy specifically. What’s the fucking point??? Is this supposed to be some sort of defence for the current US admnistration??? Could you maybe debate of the actual issue? We’re seeing people, when told “see this poor blonde-haired girl? She’s been raped and murdered by this bastard” arguing about whether or not she’s actually blonde and whether or not anal penetration should count as rape. These silly, disingeneous and stupid games don’t deserve a response. They are just pit-worthy. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/52 "2005-12-08T17:32:46Z")
> [@yojimbo](#): > > Tell you what, read [this](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476_pf.html). > > Now what are you saying? There is no proof of torture I’ll give you but are you really saying that the US didn’t detain this man, find later that he was innocent as then release him? Well, here’s my take after reading that story. No specific sources are identified. It’s still impossible for me to evaluate the evidence. However, there’s a definite difference between some guy’s lawsuit and the Washington Post. The Post demands confirmation from multiple reliable sources, as a general rule, before running with a story. Although they’ve made mistakes before, it’s very rare; they tend to be pretty scrupulous about their facts. I’d like it better if there were actual people to quote, because I think we should all know by now that it’s possible for people to leak stories and use a willing press to further their own agendas… (paging Judith Miller). But on balance, I think that while the allegations are still unproven, if there’s enough there for the Post to say it as clearly as they did, then I withdraw my objection to the claim. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/53 "2005-12-08T17:35:14Z")
> [@black455](#): > > [More from the WaPo](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/03/AR2005120301476_pf.html): Awww Christ. I thought I was being clever, but I see that yojimbo beat me to it. Sheesh. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/54 "2005-12-08T17:40:57Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No specific sources are identified. It’s still impossible for me to evaluate the evidence. > [@Bricker](#): > > [http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article331616.ece](http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article331616.ece) > [@The Independent](#): > > But **US officials** denied Ms Merkel’s claim that Ms Rice had apologised for the treatment of Mr Masri. “We are not quite sure what was in her head,” said one. :cough: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/55 "2005-12-08T17:51:00Z")
I assume you are referring to this, Bricker: > [@](#): > > But US officials denied Ms Merkel’s claim that Ms Rice had apologised for the treatment of Mr Masri. “We are not quite sure what was in her head,” said one. So you are letting unnamed “US officials” call Merkel a liar on your behalf? My goodness, your standards certainly differ when it’s YOU wishing to press a claim. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/56 "2005-12-08T17:54:04Z")
> [@black455](#): > > :cough: Fair point, except that I never saw any quote from Ms. Rice in which she specifically acknowledged this case. Her quotes were all general, which is why Ms. Merkel’s conclusion surprised me, and why I was willing to accept an unnamed official’s denial. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/57 "2005-12-08T17:54:25Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I assume you are referring to this, Bricker: > > So you are letting unnamed “US officials” call Merkel a liar on your behalf? My goodness, your standards certainly differ when it’s YOU wishing to press a claim. False dichotomy-- it needn’t be a lie. It could be a simply misunderstanding. Happens all the time. I don’t think that the US would apologize for this action considering there is a pending civil suit. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/58 "2005-12-08T18:00:37Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Fair point, except that I never saw any quote from Ms. Rice in which she specifically acknowledged this case. Her quotes were all general, which is why Ms. Merkel’s conclusion surprised me, and why I was willing to accept an unnamed official’s denial. So we’ve got a quote positively attributed to Andrea Merkel, and denials of that quote from unnamed US officials. I think that constitutes total victory for my side of the argument, barring any other considerations. Your rationale for believing the officials is not strong at all … it’s also a rationale for why they might lie. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/59 "2005-12-08T18:01:24Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > That’s a bizarre standard. The document is, by its nature, his own account and does not provide evidence. Do you fault all statements of claim because they don’t contain a full description of the actual evidence to appear in the case itself? No. But since I was asking for evidence, and this was offered to me, it seems fair to point out that it doesn’t meet the mark. Doesn’t mean it’s insufficient as a pleading; just means it didn’t work as convincing evidence. It’s a statement by a guy who is asking for money. > [@](#): > > Do you contend that he is lying? If so, what is your explanation for his disapparence for many months? If not, are you arguing that they were a paramilitary / intelligence group composed primarily of American nationals with the means and willingness to transport a man to Afghanistan, torture and interrogate him, yet that they were not CIA? I have no idea. It’s no up to me to provide an explanation for his disappearance. Maybe he was living with a transsexual prostitute in Hamburg, maybe he was studying for the German version of Jeopardy, maybe he was a drug runner and abudcted by his partners after skimming profits. It’s not up to me - it’s up to the proponent of a claim to provide evidence. > [@](#): > > The allegations in al-Masri’s statement of claim fit the general alleged modus operandi of the CIA eg use of black-dressed paramilitary members, cutting off clothes and reclothing the detainee, transport on an American civilian aeroplane, detainment in an American base in a foreign country, torture, interrogation. Yes, they do. > [@](#): > > The complaint was filed 2 days ago. Do such responses generally occur within such a time frame? Nope. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/60 "2005-12-08T18:02:15Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > False dichotomy-- it needn’t be a lie. It could be a simply misunderstanding. Happens all the time. I don’t think that the US would apologize for this action considering there is a pending civil suit. How about this then: Andrea Merkel told the truth. The unnamed US officials cast doubt on her statement. It’s feeble either way. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=4)