# Al-Masri held, tortured, 150 days;60 AFTER cleared; are we shitheads yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645 "2005-12-08T09:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/61 "2005-12-08T18:04:44Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > So we’ve got a quote positively attributed to Andrea Merkel, and denials of that quote from unnamed US officials. I think that constitutes total victory for my side of the argument, barring any other considerations. Your rationale for believing the officials is not strong at all … it’s also a rationale for why they might lie. Yes, but what Ms. Merkel is basing her conclusion on is unclear. I don’t doubt Ms. Merkel’s saying the words she said; I doubt that she is basing it on a concrete statement from Ms. Rice. There are two reasons I doubt it: 1. If the US is in fact guilty in this instance, Ms. Rice would be making an admission of liability that directly affects an existing civil suit. She’s simply too smart and too professional to do that. 2. If the US is NOT guilty in this instance, Ms. Rice would obviously have no reason to admit to guilt. Either way, it’s very unlikely Ms. Rice would admit, directly, culpability. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/62 "2005-12-08T18:08:14Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > How about this then: Andrea Merkel told the truth. The unnamed US officials cast doubt on her statement. It’s feeble either way. Well, you can clear the matter up by citing a direct quote from Rice. Otherwise, the jury is out. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/63 "2005-12-08T18:42:49Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Is this your idea of debate? > > Before I can reply, I have to build an actual argument to reply to? > > It appears to me that you’re saying that _I’M_ saying the only way to assess blame against the CIA is if the CIA itself admits its acts. > > Before I respond to that argument, I’d like to know if it’s what you meant. Sorry, that’s not what I meant. We all should certainly get more facts before getting all jiggy with it. I was basically commenting on the fact that there’s not going to be any sort of specific mea culpa coming from either the CIA or the current administration, since neither has ever been terribly effusive in that regard. The fact is, it’s mighty damn hard to pin anything on the CIA, since they have vast areas of endeavor that are, by design, not subject to public accountability. These types of rendition, I would presume, are not heavy on documentation or eyewitnesses, by design. They’re secret operations. And hey, they’re the CIfreakinA, and generally speaking, they don’t leave big red-hot smoking guns lying around, either. We will have a great deal of difficulty getting to the bottom of this. My kids might see a feeble one-liner in the _Post_ 50 years from now. It’s kind of a catch-22 for people who just really want to know the truth. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/64 "2005-12-08T19:33:11Z")
Is anyone listening to NPR? I heard earlier that Condi was going to be interviewed (should be about right now). Maybe she’ll say something that clears things up. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/65 "2005-12-08T19:50:15Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Well, you can clear the matter up by citing a direct quote from Rice. Otherwise, the jury is out. I have a direct quote from Merkel. She was there. Sorry if you just can’t bring yourself to believe her. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/66 "2005-12-08T20:05:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > , Ms. Rice would be making an admission of liability that directly affects an existing civil suit. She’s simply too smart and too professional to do that. Hence her weaselwording. It gets (some of) the public pressure off while not affecting legal liability. But I’m sure you understand that, Counselor. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/67 "2005-12-08T20:50:04Z")
**Mr. Bricker,** it really is hard for me to tell you how much my opinion of you has dropped in this thread. Multiple sources citing multiple intelligence officials combined with implicit public acknowledgement from the administration, specific claims from the victim supported by several key objective facts such as his appearance in Albania, and you’re running games with, “where’s the evidence.” ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/68 "2005-12-08T20:54:26Z")
> [@tschild](#): > > Sorry if I gave the impression of casting this as an occasion for quibbling, but - why the outrage, _now_? The case was in the German press in _January_, with occasional updates on the prosecutors’ progress (not surprisingly they didn’t get any names of people to indict yet), and diplomatic inquiries to the US for the rest of this year. Cases of innocent people being sent to Gitmo and other US installations, and cases of extraordinary renditions e.g. to Syria, obviously for purposes of torture, were public knowledge for _years_. Why is this an issue now when nothing has changed? > > The rest of the world doesn’t make this fine distinction between “in US custody, within the US” and “in US custody, in an US installation outside of the US”. I will confess that I thought the extra sixty days did set this apart somewhat from your garden variety snatch and scratch operation why now? I thought there was really no \*ambiguity surrounding the material facts of this lawsuit, and I think you will shortly see money change hands, or a succsseful motion for summary judgement. I rather doubt that the US can even prduce a verified answer denying Al Masri’s allegations under penalty of perjury, let alone the sort of detailed affidavits that would be required to defeat plaintiff’s motion . In my innocence, I thought even the most brainwashed chest-thumper would blush to try to weasel out of this particular atrocity–Bricker and Shodan proved me hopelessly naive. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/69 "2005-12-08T20:59:31Z")
> [@SuaSponte](#): > > **Bricker** , are you arguing that al-Masri may be lying, and was never detained, or are you arguing that some other organization (governmental or nongovernmental, US or foreign) may have detained him, flew him around the world, and dumped him in Albania? > > Sua On reflection, I’m with Bricker. Because we all know that if it WAS an alien abduction, they would use that mind ray thing on him, and make him THINK he had been snatched by the CIA–but that’s just the coverup. Unless you guys can PROVE that it wasn’t aliens, and that al-Masri wasn’t brain-rayed, I’m going to insist that we cnsider this a open controversy to which balanced and fair analysis demands acknowledging there are two sides. ’ ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/70 "2005-12-08T21:09:07Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Hence her weaselwording. It gets (some of) the public pressure off while not affecting legal liability. But I’m sure you understand that, Counselor. If Condi came out today and categorically denied apologizing for this specific act, would that change your mind? If not, then I don’t think continued debate on this subject is usefull. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/71 "2005-12-08T21:16:59Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Hence her weaselwording. It gets (some of) the public pressure off while not affecting legal liability. But I’m sure you understand that, Counselor. I am a plaintiffs’ counel, so I cna’t pretend to understand the defense guys, but sometimes legal liability is not the be and end all. If I were running this case, I would ask Al M if 100 million was enough, and I would arrange for Condi Rice , Angela Merkel AND the twins to do things to him that good Muslim men are not even supposed to know about, on national TV, while George writes over and over on the blafckboard “I will not Be such an asshole”. WATEVER THE FUCK IT TAKES to show the world how sorry we are, because we can’t be sorry enough!! ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/72 "2005-12-08T21:19:01Z")
Yes, but you know as well as I that it isn’t going to happen. The weaseling will, of course, continue. > [@](#): > > I don’t think continued debate on this subject is usefull. Not if you’re going to be so petulant about it, no. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/73 "2005-12-08T21:23:12Z")
And, after Submitting, > [@alaric](#): > > sometimes legal liability is not the be and end all. Yeah, that was kinda my point to **Bricker**. Rice is a pol, and a loyal senior Bush Administration official. The political considerations are virtually the be and end all, not the small box of legal mechanics that \*\*Bricker \*\* is once again trying to shoehorn a debate into. The government’s liability in this suit is just not a consideration at all to those responsible - hell, it isn’t their own money at stake anyway, only their public standing and its effect on their political power. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/74 "2005-12-08T21:25:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Yes, but you know as well as I that it isn’t going to happen. The weaseling will, of course, continue. No, I don’t know that. > [@](#): > > Not if you’re going to be so petulant about it, no. You’re funny! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/75 "2005-12-08T21:28:07Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are we talking thumbscrews and rubber hoses here, or “he yelled at me really loud and I was really scared”? If we are going to lump everything beyond a “pretty please, with cream and sugar, tell us all about al-Queda” as torture, fine, but maybe a bit of clarification is in order. > Regards, > Shodan It appears at one time there was a (alleged) beating. “Torture” seems to be a pretty large stretch, however- “abuse” and “a beating” would be a better choice of words. If his story is correct, he certainly has a valid complaint, whether we can call it “torture” or no. It also appears that there is some pretty strong evidence that (at least at one time) the \*CIA \* was involved. Not nessesarily with the "beating’, but at several points. My _guess_ is that the CIA fucked up, and we owe this guy an apology and a big check- and some dudes need to get their asses fired. I don’t really blame then for the original 'snatch"; but the beating was wrong, and after they found he was the wrong dude, they needed to sit him down, apologize, and offer a breifcase full of cash. Still, I disagree with the term “torture” here. “Abuse” is a better term, considering his own complaint. ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/76 "2005-12-08T22:02:22Z")
Whether we admit it was the CIA (or not) is rapidly becoming irrelevant. The German press & public are going bat-shit crazy over this and the pressure on the German government is getting intolerable. I imagine we’ll have who-what-when and where (to the extent Germany knows) before another week or two goes by. [Berlin’s Double Standards in Terror War](http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,388852,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/77 "2005-12-08T22:36:31Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > **Mr. Bricker,** it really is hard for me to tell you how much my opinion of you has dropped in this thread. Multiple sources citing multiple intelligence officials combined with implicit public acknowledgement from the administration, specific claims from the victim supported by several key objective facts such as his appearance in Albania, and you’re running games with, “where’s the evidence.” Excuse me, but did you read post #52? ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/78 "2005-12-08T22:42:33Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Excuse me, but did you read post #52? Actually, no. I had this thread open from this morning and hit quick-reply without reloading it when I got back from class. Thank you for being reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/79 "2005-12-08T23:13:52Z")
> [@astro](#): > > Whether we admit it was the CIA (or not) is rapidly becoming irrelevant. The German press & public are going bat-shit crazy over this and the pressure on the German government is getting intolerable. I imagine we’ll have who-what-when and where (to the extent Germany knows) before another week or two goes by. Quite true, and for myself I’m currently in ‘wait and see’ mode on this one. I wonder if you caught this part of the article you cited though: > [@](#): > > Conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung doesn’t see what all the fuss is about. \*\*The outrage across Europe stems from alarmist media reports \*\* about CIA flights, abductions and torture chambers that have the veneer of being based on serious research but almost appear to be part of a campaign, especially in Germany where Merkel is trying to repair relations with the United States, writes the paper. Everyone knows that America is waging a “robust” war on terror, and it’s absurd to think that European intelligence services haven’t been aware of CIA flights criss-crossing the continent, says FAZ. “One may also assume, that they usually knew what the purpose of those flights was, just as the Italian authorities are likely to have known about the abduction of an Islamist by dozens of CIA agents,” it concludes. “The excitement stems from growing disagreement about whether the means being used in the fight against terrorism are appropriate and legally acceptable.” The Bush administration has entered a gray zone in which its Guantanamo Bay prison and the torture of prisoners at Abu Ghraib has cast doubt on its methods, writes the paper. “That’s why every “normal” flight movement can be blown up into a scandal - and people believe it.” Bolding mine. It makes me wonder how accurate anything coming out of Germany will be…unless the German government themselves make a direct statement with reguards to this. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/80 "2005-12-09T00:36:12Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > …It makes me wonder how accurate anything coming out of Germany will be… Your quoted material says some conservative media is of the opinion the rest of the papers are hyping the story. Of course they’re of that opinion. So what? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=5)