# Al-Masri held, tortured, 150 days;60 AFTER cleared; are we shitheads yet? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645 "2005-12-08T09:48:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/81 "2005-12-09T00:47:15Z")
> [@Atticus Finch](#): > > Your quoted material says some conservative media is of the opinion the rest of the papers are hyping the story. Of course they’re of that opinion. So what? Because it gives another point of view. Just because its ‘conservative’ doesn’t necessarily mean its wrong you know…nor does it mean you should dismiss it simply on that basis. I was in Germany before all this hit and I’ll tell you…from my perspective it DID seem like there was a campaign going on to keep anti-American sentiment on a low boil (or even a not so low boil). Now, you could say that the US itself is doing its part…but I don’t think this is a one sided thing. YMMV and all that. -XT ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/82 "2005-12-09T00:49:45Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Bolding mine. It makes me wonder how accurate anything coming out of Germany will be…unless the German government themselves make a direct statement with reguards to this. The current crisis is so severe that I don’t see how the government can avoid a direct statement. Merkel already ordered Steinmeier (then Schröder’s Chief of Staff, now Foreign Minister) to testify before the _Parliamentary Control Panel_ that investigates the work of the intelligence services, but unfortunately the results will be classified. The opposition threatens to force Steinmeier and the former Minister of the Interior, Schily, before an investigation committee. And of course there is still the ongoing regular criminal investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/83 "2005-12-09T01:02:24Z")
Let’s assume the Washington Post article is correct. If so here’s what went down: Macedonian border guards caught this guy and held him because of generalized suspicion. They contacted American officials and moved him into their custody. He was then taken into custody by the CIA and packed off to Afghanistan, to the “salt pit.” Where he alleges he was tortured (no evidence there.) At worst, we have an innocent person being tortured for several months. That’s pretty bad. But it’s also possible he was just detained for a few months and interrogated, there’s no evidence he was actually tortured. And interrogation != torture. When the higher ups in the United States government found out this guy was innocent of any association with terrorism, they let him go. I don’t see the big deal. I’ll take some foreigner spending a few months on a cot in a cell somewhere over another 9/11 any day. Vigiliance is a virtue, not a vice. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/84 "2005-12-09T01:16:59Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > At worst, we have an innocent person being tortured for several months. That’s pretty bad. > > But it’s also possible he was just detained for a few months and interrogated, there’s no evidence he was actually tortured. And interrogation != torture. > > When the higher ups in the United States government found out this guy was innocent of any association with terrorism, they let him go. I don’t see the big deal. > > I’ll take some foreigner spending a few months on a cot in a cell somewhere over another 9/11 any day. Vigiliance is a virtue, not a vice. No, we have evidence of the torture in his sudden loss of weight. This guy wasn’t let go after being proven innocent, he was detained for an additonal two months and threatened to never tell his story. And this isn’t about, “some foreigner spending a few months on a cot,” it’s about the fact that the United States is in bed with and will cooperate with absolute fucking morons in detaining people incommunicado for months on the absolutely flimsiest of evidence such as sharing the a common Arab name. Extroirdinary rendition places the United States in league with the worst human rights abusers on the Earth, and I don’t understand how you cannot be afraid of how that will damage our place in the international community of help to recruit further terrorism. The United States is detaining thousands upon thousands of individuals throughout the world without evidence or charges, from Guantanamo Bay Cuba, to Abu Gharib Prison in Iraq, and now an apparent archipelago of secret CIA prisons in Eastern Europe with unknown numbers. How can Americans not object to this? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/85 "2005-12-09T01:29:32Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > No, we have evidence of the torture in his sudden loss of weight. No, he admits he went on a hunger strike, if you read his own materials. “Common name” seems to be in doubt, also. But do read my post above. ---
**Author:** ![Banquet\_Bear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/banquet_bear/32/373_2.png) [@Banquet\_Bear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Banquet_Bear)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/86 "2005-12-09T01:32:25Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I’ll take some foreigner spending a few months on a cot in a cell somewhere over another 9/11 any day. Vigiliance is a virtue, not a vice. …its okay to lock **some foreigner** up for months without telling anyone? With all due respect, this is an abhorent, disgusting attitude. When New Zealand was hit by State Sponsered terrorism twenty years ago, we didn’t go locking up French people at random because their name was “similar” to the people we were looking for. If your government was ever to publicly endorse the idea that you espouse, then I would reccomend that you close your borders and stop international tourism: because if its acceptable to lock up **some foreigners** for any length of time to keep the United States (The Land of the Free) safe,then don’t be surprised when Americans start turning up in secret prisons world wide for the sake of “National Security.” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/87 "2005-12-09T01:59:52Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > Let’s assume the Washington Post article is correct. > > \ > > When the higher ups in the United States government found out this guy was innocent of any association with terrorism, they let him go. I don’t see the big deal. Here’s the big deal: 1. Why do we send a suspect (ie, someone we only suspect might be linked to terrorism) to Afghanistan for interrogation? 2. Why does it take several months to figure out that the guy isn’t who we think he is? ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/88 "2005-12-09T02:00:37Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > But it’s also possible he was just detained for a few months and interrogated, there’s no evidence he was actually tortured. And interrogation != torture. > > When the higher ups in the United States government found out this guy was innocent of any association with terrorism, they let him go. I don’t see the big deal. > > I’ll take some foreigner spending a few months on a cot in a cell somewhere over another 9/11 any day. Vigiliance is a virtue, not a vice. You are apparently factually incorrect in this assessment, as others have pointed out. More importantly, however, we have noted that your name apears on our watch list. We are coming over and we will be doing the following: drug you, cut off your clothing, transport you to another location and hold you incommunicado for several months. At our discretion, we will take any actions against you that we think may facilitate your telling us what we want to hear, as long as it doesn’t leave a mark. Your family will have no idea where you are. If at the end of that time we determine we have made a mistake, we will dump you on a road somewhere, pay you no compensation of any kind, apologize for nothing, and deny we ever held you. No, don’t complain. We’re just doing what we need to do to be vigilant. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/89 "2005-12-09T02:10:10Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > When the higher ups in the United States government found out this guy was innocent of any association with terrorism, they let him go. I don’t see the big deal. > > I’ll take some foreigner spending a few months on a cot in a cell somewhere over another 9/11 any day. Vigiliance is a virtue, not a vice. I find this a chilling statement that any American who values liberty would reject. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/90 "2005-12-09T02:38:14Z")
> [@Martin Hyde](#): > > I’ll take some foreigner spending a few months on a cot in a cell somewhere over another 9/11 any day. Vigiliance is a virtue, not a vice. I missed this one. That’s really a false dichotomy, especially in light of the 2 questions I asked you in my previous post. You also miss the point that “some foreigner”, once he is released, is likely to tell his tale, and incite \*\*more \*\*disaffected muslims/arabs to be sympathetic with the Islamisists’ cause. And that’s yet another recruiting tool to get muslim/arab youths to sign up for armed action. I’m entirely unconvinced that this type of activity is necessary in order to fight terrorists. And, if you believe her recent statements, neither is Condi Rice. ---
**Author:** ![alaricthegoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4bbf92/32.png) [@alaricthegoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alaricthegoth)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 9:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/91 "2005-12-10T09:49:54Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Here’s the big deal: > > 1. Why do we send a suspect (ie, someone we only suspect might be linked to terrorism) to Afghanistan for interrogation? > > 2. Why does it take several months to figure out that the guy isn’t who we think he is? may we not also raise an eyebrow at the EXTRA two months?? I don’t see how this can be “no big deal” if ALL issues of fact are resolved in favor of the government. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/92 "2005-12-10T13:22:12Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Common name” seems to be in doubt, also. What would it take to convince you that Khaled al-Masri is a common name? ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/93 "2005-12-10T16:37:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > “Common name” seems to be in doubt, also. Eh? It’s certainly not that exceptionally rare, either. Unless you think Lebanese clothing designer Khaled al-Masri… [http://www.khaledcouture.com/about.html](http://www.khaledcouture.com/about.html) and Harvard Ph.D student Khaled al-Masri… [http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~nelc/faculty/almasri.htm](http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~nelc/faculty/almasri.htm) not to mention the German Khaled al-Masri in question, are just different fronts for terrorist Khaled al-Masri. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/94 "2005-12-10T18:00:19Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Eh? It’s certainly not that exceptionally rare, either. Unless you think Lebanese clothing designer Khaled al-Masri… > > [http://www.khaledcouture.com/about.html](http://www.khaledcouture.com/about.html) Ahhh, ahhh, the goggles do nothing. That is terror… ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/95 "2005-12-10T18:08:33Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Eh? It’s certainly not that exceptionally rare, either. Unless you think Lebanese clothing designer Khaled al-Masri… Does el-Masri/al-Masri mean “the Egyptian”? The news articles all state that the German guy was born in Kuwait of Lebanese parents. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/96 "2005-12-10T18:48:06Z")
> [@threemae](#): > > Ahhh, ahhh, the goggles do nothing. That is terror… Hey, I didn’t say he was a _good_ clothing designer. And are you saying you have something against transparent wedding dresses? 😛 > [@John Mace](#): > > Does el-Masri/al-Masri mean “the Egyptian”? The news articles all state that the German guy was born in Kuwait of Lebanese parents. Probably - _Misr_ or _Masr_ is Arabic for Egypt. But the word masr itself apparently has other derivations before being applied to Egypt and is found elsewhere, so it may not necessarily be the case. But any rate the name may stretch back many generations, so one could easily be a 8th generation Kuwaiti and still be descended from some Egyptian merchant that established himself there in Ottoman times. - Tamerlane ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/97 "2005-12-10T18:52:36Z")
The discussion here is ridiculous after Abu Grahib. Yes, who indeed could believe that the US-administration could do anything as described in the OP? [/deep irony] **BBC:** [http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4619377.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4619377.stm) > [@](#): > > **Italy seeks 'CIA kidnap agents’** > > **Italian authorities have issued arrest warrants for 13 people they claim are agents “linked to the CIA”.** > > The suspects are accused of abducting an Islamic cleric in Milan in 2003 and flying him to Egypt for interrogation. > > Osama Mustafa Hassan, also known as Abu Omar, was already being investigated in Italy as part of a terrorism inquiry. > > [_B]Italian prosecutors believe the operation was part of a controversial US anti-terror policy known as “extraordinary rendition”._\*\* > > The policy involves seizing suspects and taking them to third countries without court approval. > > Human rights organisations say some of the countries to which terror suspects have been deported are known to use torture, and critics have branded it “torture by proxy”. > > The US embassy in Rome has not commented on the arrest warrants issued against the 13 people - 10 men and three women. > > \ > > **Electric shocks** > > According to Italian daily Corriere della Sera, Mr Hassan was then driven to the US base at Aviano north of Venice and transferred to another base in Germany, before eventually being taken to Egypt. \ > [@](#): > > Washington Post Foreign Service > Tuesday, December 6, 2005; Page A01 > > MILAN – In March 2003, the Italian national anti-terrorism police received an urgent message from the CIA about a radical Islamic cleric who had mysteriously vanished from Milan a few weeks before. The CIA reported that it had reliable information that the cleric, the target of an Italian criminal investigation, had fled to an unknown location in the Balkans. > > In fact, according to Italian court documents and interviews with investigators, the CIA’s tip was a deliberate lie, part of a ruse designed to stymie efforts by the Italian anti-terrorism police to track down the cleric, Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, an Egyptian refugee known as Abu Omar. > > The strategy worked for more than a year until Italian investigators learned that Nasr had not gone to the Balkans after all. Instead, prosecutors here have charged, he was abducted off a street in Milan by a team of CIA operatives who took him to two U.S. military bases in succession and then flew him to Egypt, where he was interrogated and allegedly tortured by Egyptian security agents before being released to house arrest. > \ Henry ---
**Author:** ![Henry-Finland](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e99b99/32.png) [@Henry-Finland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henry-Finland)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/98 "2005-12-10T19:04:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **The CIA’s Kidnapping Ring** > **U.S. ally Uzbekistan teaches interrogators how to boil suspected terrorists to death** > > U.S. law and international conventions bar sending prisoners to another nation unless there are strong assurances of humane treatment. The CIA says with a straight face that it gets those assurances **before delivering suspects to jailers in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and Pakistan** —countries that have such abysmal human rights records that promises of decent treatment are a joke. Editorial, **Los Angeles Times** , March 11 > > _ **But of course they’re out of control, there’s only so much we can do.** _ > Porter Goss, director of Central Intelligence, quoted by Democratic congress…man Edward Markey of Massachusetts in a letter to his colleagues, March 8 > > During a White House press conference on March 16, George W. Bush was asked: "Mr. President, can you explain why you’ve approved of and expanded the practice of what’s called ‘rendition’—of transferring individuals out of U.S. custody to countries where human rights groups and y **our own State Department say torture is common for people under custody?"** > > The president: “\ This country does not believe in torture.” > > Question: “As commander in chief, what is it that Uzbekistan can do in interrogating an individual that the United States can’t?” > > George W. Bush repeated his talking point: “We seek assurances that nobody will be tortured.” > Actually, there is much that U.S. interrogators can learn from their counterparts in Uzbekistan on how to break down prisoners. One of the CIA’s jet planes used to render purported terrorists to other countries—where information is extracted by any means necessary—made 10 trips to Uzbekistan. > > In a segment of CBS’s 60 Minutes on these CIA torture missions (March 5), **former British ambassador to Uzbekistan Craig Murray told** of the range of advanced techniques used by Uzbek interrogators: > > “drowning and suffocation, rape was used . . . and also immersion of limbs in boiling liquid.” > > Two nights later on **ABC’s World News Tonight, Craig Murray** told of photos he received of an Uzbek interrogation that ended with the prisoner actually being boiled to death! > > Murray, appalled, had protested **to the British Foreign Office in a confidential memorandum leaked to and printed in the Financial Times** on October 11 of last year: > > “Uzbek officials are torturing prisoners to extract information [about reported terrorist operations], which is supplied to the U.S. and passed through its Central Intelligence Agency to the U.K., says Mr. Murray.” There is much more to read: [http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0516,hentoff,63104,6.html](http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0516,hentoff,63104,6.html) Henry ---
**Author:** ![bizzwire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/958977/32.png) [@bizzwire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizzwire)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/99 "2005-12-10T20:51:42Z")
> [@alaricthegoth](#): > > [http://www.forbes.com/business/services/feeds/ap/2005/12/07/ap2375481.html](http://www.forbes.com/business/services/feeds/ap/2005/12/07/ap2375481.html) _ **Forbes?!?!!** _ That liberal commie rag? You’re gonna believe _them_? ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645/100 "2005-12-11T00:17:08Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Does el-Masri/al-Masri mean “the Egyptian”? The news articles all state that the German guy was born in Kuwait of Lebanese parents. Names are given to differentiate between people. If someone get to be called “the egyptian” you can be essentially 100% certain he’s not living in Egyptia where giving him this name would be completely pointless. His descendants _might_ come back to Egyptia, but they’re way more likely to be still living in the other country where their ancestor was given this name. That’s true for any name related to place. If someone is called, say, Winkleigh, it’s pretty certain that his ancestor _left_ the town of Winkleigh to settle somewhere else where he was called after the name of his original place. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-masri-held-tortured-150-days-60-after-cleared-are-we-shitheads-yet/334645.md?page=6)