# Al Qaeda in Iraq: mutiplying like bread and fish? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 25, 2007, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392 "2007-06-25T21:19:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/41 "2007-06-28T18:20:24Z")
Yes, it’s really fun to snigger and sneer, but Iraqi soldiers are dying in large numbers trying to pacify their country. And if you notice, part of the reason the strategy was changed was precisely because it was recognized that the old strategy wasn’t working - the Iraqis simply weren’t ready to handle a full-scale insurgency. So the Americans would clear an area, turn it over to Iraqi troops, and leave. Then insurgents would attack the Iraqi soldiers and drive them out of the area, repopulate it, assert control over the population again, and the U.S. would have to go back in again. THis was the ‘whack a mole’ strategy that was obviously a failure, but which Rumsfeld refused to change for several years. “Small Wars Journal” is not some guy’s blog. It’s the web site of a magazine that is like a professional journal for soldiers. Most of the people who write for it are either civilian defense specialists or military officers. I think it’s hilarious that you would categorize Dave Kilcullen as just another Blogger, while holding up Glenn Greenwald as some sort of authority. Let’s compare their bios: From [this Bio:](http://www.defendamerica.mil/specials/2007/blog/docs/Kilcullen%20Bio.pdf) > [@](#): > > Dr. David Kilcullen is the senior counter-insurgency advisor to General David Petraeus, commander of Multi-National Force - Iraq. Before serving in Iraq he was the chief counter-terrorism strategist for the U.S. State Department, a job that involved field work in Iraq, Afghanistan, the northwest frontier of Pakistan, and the Horn of Africa, as well as policy planning in Washington, D.C. > > Kilcullen previously served as a senior analyst in Australia’s Office of National Assessments, and is a former Australian infantry officer with operational service in East Timor, Bougainville and the Middle East, and a professional background in counterinsurgency and unconventional warfare. > > He worked in the Pentagon as special adviser for counter-terrorism during the 2005 U.S. Quadrennial Defense Review, and was a member of the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade’s writing team for Australia’s 2004 White Paper on Terrorism. His doctoral dissertation, completed in 2000, analyses the political effects of insurgency and counter-insurgency on traditional Muslim societies, and involved extended fieldwork with members of Dar’ul Islam, the forerunner to terrorist group Jema’ah Islamiyah. > > David is fluent in Indonesian, partially fluent in Arabic and French, holds several Australian and U.S. military and civilian decorations, and remains a Lieutenant Colonel in the Australian Army reserve. He has also been highly critical of the Bush Administration and of the previous failed policies in Iraq. Glenn Greenwald, on the other hand, is a civil rights litigator from New York. He appears to have no training at all in military matters. Furthermore, he appears to be a lousy lournalist, because the facts don’t bear out any of his criticism about the ‘propaganda shift’ of calling insurgents al-Qaida. In fact, as [this thorough debunking shows](http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/231335.php): > [@](#): > > You’ll note that Greenwald’s supporting “evidence” for his comes in the form of links to liberal blogs, letters to [Salon.com](http://Salon.com), selected articles from the Washington Post, and the New York Times, and yet, he completely fails to address the fact that Multi-National Corps-Iraq’s own press releases debunk his claims on a daily basis. > … > Today, Monday, June 25, MNF-I has 13 listed press releases. Of those, one is a duplicate post, while the remaining 12 press releases break down enemy activity in Iraq for the day as follows: > > four releases discussing Sunni insurgent activity; > one release discussing Shia militia “Secret Cells;” > four where a specific group enemy group is not named; > …and only two where Al Qaeda is mentioned. > Far from making the enemy “almost exclusively” al Qaeda, MNF-I PAO’s releases for the day link less than 17% of their stories to al Qaeda activity. But hey, you don’t have to take my word or his. Just go to the presside for the [Multi-National Forces Iraq](http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=category§ionid=1&id=4&Itemid=21) and peruse their archive of press releases yourself. No secondary sources required. And if you’d like to know what’s actually been going on in Baqubah, you could try reading [Michael Yon’s](http://www.michaelyon-online.com/wp/drilling-for-justice.htm) dispatches. He’s an independent reporter embedded with U.S. forces, and he’s been going on combat patrols with them and reporting what he sees. He’s no shill for Bush, but he is an excellent photographer and reporter. If you’ve seen that well-known picture of an American soldier cradling an injured Iraqi child, that’s his. It’s been on the cover of many magazines and news articles. There is no question whatsoever that al-Qaida had a heavy presence in the area. From the article: > [@](#): > > Al Qaeda in Iraq (AQI) had tarnished its name here by publicly attacking and murdering children, videotaping beheadings, all while imposing harsh punishments on Iraqi civilians found guilty of violating morality laws prohibiting activities like smoking. The AQI installed Sharia court had sanctioned the amputation of the two “smoking fingers” for those who violated anti-smoking laws. In part because local sentiment was shifting against it, AQI synthesized with other groups and undertook an image makeover, christening itself “The Islamic State of Iraq.” But the new name was just lipstick on a pig here. On of the reasons the local insurgencies have turned to helping the MNF with al-Qaida is because al-Qaida has behaved like the radical fanatics they are whenever they’ve gained any sort of local control and alienated the population. Iraqis aren’t ignorant peasants - they’re educated, sophisticated people. No matter how much the Sunnis hate the Shias, exposure to al-Qaida in power is toxic to their continued existence. And despite the sneering here about ‘panglossian blogs’, there’s nothing on any of the sites I linked that could be called even remotely panglossian. The Small Wars Journal article admits that it may be too late in Iraq, and that there are no guarantees of success. It notes that counter-counterinsurgency is a given, and the enemy will certainly shift tactics. It’s a difficult fight, no one is pretending it isn’t. That’s different than saying it’s lost and there’s no hope, however. One of the commenters on the SWJ cite was dead-on when he said that the real tragedy here is the Bush Administration’s refusal to learn the lessons of previous counter-insurgencies. The ‘protect the population’ strategy that is finally taking place now was well known as the most effective way to stop an insugency well before the war broke out, but Rumseld’s ‘smaller, more agile’ doctrine ran counter to that, so it was ignored for years, despite the complaints of experts like Kilcullen. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/42 "2007-06-29T05:27:06Z")
The OP is obviously incorrect since it implies the mainstream news channels, newspapers, and even our elected officials might be fibbing or even spoon feeding us out and out propaganda. That obviously doesn’t happen in America. After all, we have CNN and liberal rags to set the story straight. Actually, I have noticed Bush and pals referring to Al Qaida more lately. The blogs have been talking about it a little, so you’re not alone. “Meh” as far as I’m concerned, maybe it amounts to a slight up tic in the graph of this lie – maybe only a change in slight degree, not kind. See also: democracy is messy, a free people are free to make bad choices, Saddam loyalists, dead enders, last throes, etc. Other posters also echo my feelings of what must amount to _deja vu_ for many Americans. After all, we were brutally efficient in Vietnam. Everyone we killed was Viet Cong. All three million of 'em. Yep. [QUOTE=Sam Stone] Yes, it’s really fun to snigger and sneer, but Iraqi soldiers are dying in large numbers trying to pacify their country. [/quote] I agree. How could one be so [callous](http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,1178547,00.html) as to poke fun at a twisted, sordid, fucking stupid mess of one’s own making? > [@](#): > > A slide showed Mr Bush in the Oval office, leaning to look under a piece of furniture. “Those weapons of mass destruction have got to be here somewhere,” he told the audience, drawing applause. > > Another slide showed him peering into another part of the office, “Nope, no weapons over there,” he said, laughing. “Maybe under here,” he said, as a third slide was shown. Indeed, George, what a nice joke you pulled. On all of us. Our failure as a society is quite hilarious, really. > [@](#): > > One of the commenters on the SWJ cite was dead-on when he said that the real tragedy here is the Bush Administration’s refusal to learn the lessons of previous counter-insurgencies. It is funny, in a tragic Shakespearean manner, because the sheer incomptetence from top to bottom is pretty amazing and well documented going back not even to the start of _this_ war, but all the way back to the 60s. There are big fat reports and books all about it that a weakling like I could barely lift with one arm, written by experts and everything. One would think the imperialists would’ve learned their lessons long ago but nope, here it comes again, rearing its ugly head again. The 1% must be really pissed off that they put their money behind these numbskulls. Also, for those referring to the Iraqi army, be careful. Last I checked, the army, police, and important civilian operations were riddled with insurgents and informants. You know…a massive insurgency? A super majority of the population wanting you to leave their country ASAP? ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/43 "2007-06-29T10:07:15Z")
Michael Yon? The guy touting Operation Arrowhead Ripper? The guy claiming [yet another slaughter of our allies](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28850108.htm) as some sort of victory? > [@](#): > > But villagers in largely-Shia al-Khalis say that those who died had nothing to do with al-Qaeda. They say they were local village guards trying to protect the township from exactly the kind of attack by insurgents the US military says it foiled. > > They say that of 16 guards, 11 were killed and five others injured - two of them seriously - when US helicopters fired rockets at them and then strafed them with heavy machinegun fire. > > Minutes before the attack, they had been co-operating with an Iraqi police unit raiding a suspected insurgent hideout, the villagers said. > > \ > > The families of those who died are seeking a meeting with the head of the al-Khalis town council. They are incensed that the village guards should be described as “al-Qaeda gunmen”. > > All but two of those killed were Shia and they have been buried at Najaf. The other two who were from the local minority Sunni community. > > A spokesman for the US-led Multinational Forces said they were investigating the incident in the light of the allegations. > > If the villagers’ account is true, the incident would raise many questions, including: > > ``` > * On what basis did the US helicopters launch their attack that night? > > * How many other coalition reports of successes against "al-Qaeda fighters" are based on similar mistakes, especially when powerful remote weaponry is used? > > ``` Somehow he seems to have missed this bit in all his unquestioning parroting of US claims. An embedded reporter has a very narrow and particular view. It’s interesting reporting but not even approaching a slam dunk source. It’s Nam deja vu all over again. Every dead Iraqi is an insurgent. The ARVN/Iraqi Army is forever on the verge of standing up and the national government isn’t worth spit. And we’ll be back in the same place doing the same thing with the same level of self-defeating callous incompetence next year. Okay - we may or may not kill a few people that call themselves Al-Q. Big fucking deal if at the same time we fuel the real insurgency with our stupidity and our lies. Does anyone want to seriously argue that shit like this does anything else but sow another handful of dragon’s teeth? Particularly when even Von recognises the continued cowardice and ineptitude of the guys who are meant to hold the ‘cleared’ area. The police are a corrupt, cowardly, militia in disguise joke and the army? Well, as he says himself: > [@](#): > > For security reasons, the Iraqi Army (IA) was not included in the initial planning of Arrowhead Ripper, yet with each succeeding day the IA has taken a larger role in the unfolding attack. The Fifth Iraqi Army Division is considered an increasingly competent group of fighters, They aren’t trusted enough to be in on the planning and the best of the best, when they are allowed to take part are ‘increasingly competent’. A 25% absenteeism rate. Loyal to faction rather than national government. Meanwhile al-sadr is threatening a million man march to Samarra and the parliament, split along sectarian lines cannot even agree if the Speaker has been sacked or not. A warrant on terrorism charges has been issued for the Minister of Culture. And [another 3 Brits killed in Basra](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6247960.stm) where [it is reported](http://www.azzaman.com/english/index.asp?fname=news%5C2007-06-27%5Ckurd.htm) > [@](#): > > As U.S. troops battle to retake Baghdad and surrounding areas, the government is reported to have lost its control of Basra where almost all of the country’s oil exports originate. > > The city, according to well-placed sources, is under the hegemony of militias who do not run its streets only but have imposed levies and taxes on oil output. > > “It may be too late for Prime Minister Nouri al-Naliki to restore control of Basra,” one source working for Iraqi intelligence said. > > The sources, who all spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of retribution, point to the growing Iranian influence in Basra and most of southern Iraq. > > The loss of Basra to Shiite militias is a blow to current U.S. military operations mainly directed against Sunni rebels and elements of al-Qaeda group in the country. > > The four-month long operations in which tens of thousands of U.S. marines are involved have foundered due to tough resistance from various Iraqi groups particularly those linked to al-Qaeda. > > British troops in Basra are almost powerless as their previous military tactics to retake control of the city have all but backfired. Meanwhile in Baghdad the car bombings and the executions continue unabated and US casualties continue to mount. The US-friendly UN chief says [the surge is failing](http://www.juancole.com/2007/06/ban-ki-moon-surge-failing-diyala-bridge.html) > [@](#): > > Despite the initial success of stepped-up security measures in recent months, the situation in Iraq remains precarious. Insurgent attacks persist and civilian casualties continue to mount. While there was a brief lull in the level of sectarian violence early in the reporting period, it now appears that militia forces are resuming their activities, including targeted killings and kidnappings. The threat that the violence poses to the political process was illustrated by the bombing in the Iraqi Parliament on 12 April that resulted in the death of one lawmaker and injured several others. The Council of Representatives met in an extraordinary session the following day to condemn the attack and show its defiance. South of Baghdad, rising political tension in Basra and Qadissiya provinces resulted in an escalation of violence in those governorates. The Government of Iraq continued to engage leaders from across the political and religious spectrum to promote its national reconciliation plan. The efforts of the Prime Minister, Nouri al-Maliki, to reconcile demands within his governing coalition were further challenged by the withdrawal of support by key allies in his Government. . . > > 1. Despite growing awareness and concern regarding the humanitarian crisis in Iraq, the situation deteriorated steadily during the reporting period. The violence has resulted in a protection crisis which dominates discussions related to a humanitarian response. For every death reported in the news, six family members on average are left without a breadwinner. The rising number of displaced persons is also a cause for concern. UNHCR estimates that displacement has continued at an undiminished pace and over 800,000 Iraqis have been internally displaced since the Samarra mosque bombing in February 2006, while 30,000 to 50,000 flee to neighbouring countries each month. [The UK Iraq Envoy concurs](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/20/wirq120.xml) > [@](#): > > The “troop surge” by American soldiers in Iraq is not working, one of Britain’s senior military officials in Baghdad has said. > > In a pessimistic assessment of the strategy designed to pull Iraq back from all-out civil war, Alastair Campbell, the outgoing defence attaché at the British Embassy in Baghdad, claimed that extra US forces were not achieving the desired drop in violence. > > Mr Campbell, whose remarks may cause embarrassment to Downing Street and anger in Washington, said that the casualty figures for April - in which 1,500 civilians are believed to have been killed - provided no “encouraging” evidence. > > \ > > Speaking on the record last week to a public audience at Chatham House, the London-based foreign-policy research institute, he said: “The evidence does not suggest that the surge is actually working, if reduction in casualties is a criterion. The figures in April were not encouraging.” > > In unusually candid comments, Mr Campbell also disclosed that American commanders had decided that the criteria for the “success” of the troop surge would be nothing more than a reduction in violence to the level prior to last year’s al-Qaeda bombing of the al-Askari Mosque in Samarra, which destroyed its golden dome. But I guess there are just some people still who when they wake up and smell shit they think coffee. Those of us embedded in the real world have long since stopped buying. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/44 "2007-06-29T12:48:09Z")
Turns out I was not only right – **Sam’s** bellowing notwithstanding – but it’s also a VERY obvious coordinated campaign to reel-in the Usual Rightards…as, once again, _Squink’s_ pol figures show. [Bush plays al Qaida card to bolster support for Iraq policy](http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/17471.html) Longish quote ahead. > [@](#): > > Facing eroding support for his Iraq policy, even among Republicans, President Bush on Thursday called al Qaida “the main enemy” in Iraq, **an assertion rejected by his administration’s senior intelligence analysts.** > > The reference, in a major speech at the [Naval War College](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/06/20070628-14.html) that _ **referred to al Qaida at least 27 times, seemed calculated to use lingering outrage over the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001** _, to bolster support for the current buildup of U.S. troops in Iraq, despite evidence that sending more troops hasn’t reduced the violence or sped Iraqi government action on key issues. > > Bush called al Qaida in Iraq the perpetrator of the worst violence racking that country and said it was the same group that had carried out the Sept. 11 attacks in New York and Washington. > > “Al Qaida is the main enemy for Shia, Sunni and Kurds alike,” Bush asserted. “Al Qaida’s responsible for the most sensational killings in Iraq. They’re responsible for the sensational killings on U.S. soil.” > > _ **U.S. military and intelligence officials, however, say that Iraqis with ties to al Qaida are only a small fraction of the threat to American troops** _. The group known as al Qaida in Iraq didn’t exist before the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, didn’t pledge its loyalty to al Qaida leader Osama bin Laden until October 2004 and isn’t controlled by bin Laden or his top aides. > > \ > > \*\*\*Bush’s use of al Qaida in his speech had strong echoes of the strategy the administration had used to whip up public support for the Iraq invasion by accusing the late Iraqi leader Saddam Hussein of cooperating with bin Laden and implying that he’d played a role in the Sept. 11 attacks. \*\*\*Administration officials have since acknowledged that Saddam had no ties to bin Laden or 9-11. > > **_A similar pattern has developed in Iraq, where the U.S. military has cited al Qaida 33 times in a barrage of news releases in the last seven days, and some news organizations have echoed the drumbeat_.** Last month, al Qaida was mentioned only nine times in U.S. military news releases. > > \ > > _ **U.S. intelligence agencies and military commanders say the Sunni-Shiite conflict is the greatest source of violence and insecurity in Iraq.** _ > > “Extremists — most notably the Sunni jihadist group al Qaida in Iraq and Shia oppositionist Jaysh al-Mahdi — continue to act as very effective accelerators for what has become a self-sustaining struggle between Shia and Sunnis,” the National Intelligence Council wrote in the unclassified key judgments of a [National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq](http://www.dni.gov/press_releases/20070202_release.pdf) (PDF) published in January. Jaysh al Mahdi is Arabic for the Mahdi Army militia of anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al Sadr. > > The council comprises the top U.S. intelligence analysts, and a National Intelligence Estimate is the most comprehensive assessment it produces for the president and a small number of his senior aides. _ **It reflects the consensus of all 16 U.S. intelligence agencies.** _ – my highlights. Says it all, really. So, as far as I am concerned, my job here is done. Hope this thread has been of some value to the fence-sitters as it shows once again what a lying, conniving and murdering cabal, controls the fate of your nation. If the Bushies or warmongers have anything of substance to refute the evidence given, bring it on. Otherwise, I’d say we can put a fork in this one. Ignorance fought. Up to each individual to judge the facts such as they have been presented – and the evidence is overwhelming in favor of my original especulations. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/45 "2007-06-29T20:13:00Z")
Hey, I wanted to cite that… Anyway, I don’t see all the fuss. I mean, compared to the Everest of lies used in nearly every facet of policy this is a small molehill. It’s interesting, certainly, to see the raw numbers, but of little importance. Now lying about covert operations in Iran and their “diplomatic efforts”, well… ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/46 "2007-06-29T20:14:45Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] Hey, I wanted to cite that… [/QUOTE] You got to get up pretty early in the afternoon, you want to be ol’ **Red** ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/47 "2007-06-29T20:40:25Z")
“beat” ol’ **Red** ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2007, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/48 "2007-06-29T21:20:19Z")
The Decider has decided that al Qaeda is the enemy. If The Decider doesn’t get to decide that, then what kind of Decider would he be? Not a decidedly decisive one, I can tell you that! So it is said, so let it be decided. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 2:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/49 "2007-06-30T02:34:21Z")
[QUOTE=marshmallow] Hey, I wanted to cite that… [/quote] Well, as **'luc** rightfully says, you’ve got to be up at least a few minutes prior 1:OO PM in order to beat me to anything early afternoon riser that I am. I mean, at my age I need my beauty rest – not that it helps…but come on! Rise and shine. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I don’t see all the fuss. I mean, compared to the Everest of lies used in nearly every facet of policy this is a small molehill. It’s interesting, certainly, to see the raw numbers, but of little importance. Now lying about covert operations in Iran and their “diplomatic efforts”, well… Never tried to make a a big fuss outta of it. Simply outing yet another of your Government’s lies. It started on a hunch and I simply kept digging. No big, I agree, just a heads-up. And certainly just another link in the chain. But still…why give them a pass on **any** of their wrongdoings? BTW, where are the rebuttals? And what happened to **Sam** anyway? Him being so adamant and all… Night anyway. Off to watch MM’s “Sicko.” Perfect for moi, isn’t it? Till next time. Keep on doing what you’re doing. Quite good at it. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/50 "2007-06-30T02:40:06Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] The Decider has decided that al Qaeda is the enemy. If The Decider doesn’t get to decide that, then what kind of Decider would he be? Not a decidedly decisive one, I can tell you that! So it is said, so let it be decided. [/QUOTE] Haven’t seen much of that side of you, **John** , and I wouldn’t suggest you quit your day job based on one post, but I found that pretty funny anyway. Night all – for real. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/51 "2007-06-30T03:33:20Z")
[QUOTE=EddyTeddyFreddy] Huh. You’re not the only one who’s been struck by that, **RedFury**. I’ve been thinking the same damned thing lately – just how the hell do they actually know all those people they’ve been killing in Iraq are ALL al Qaeda lately? Maybe I’m paranoid, but it’s got a definite stink of propaganda to me. [/QUOTE] I have definitely noticed this as well. It seemed to happen all of a sudden about 2 months ago or so. I was even going to start a thread about it in GQ asking: “How can we know that all of the ‘enemy’ we’re killing in battle is Al Qaeda?” But I decided to let it go. I’m just glad I’m not the only one who noticed it. I checked some foreign news sites and they didn’t seem to always refer to the enemy as Al Qaeda. I have also noticed that these articles have no other sources that “the U.S. Military said”. I admit that a large amount of the data coming out of Iraq will be from the U.S. Military, but aren’t there any other viewpoints over there?? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/52 "2007-06-30T18:05:49Z")
[From Reuters](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N29348333.htm): > [@](#): > > **Iraq militias turning against al Qaeda - US general** > > WASHINGTON, June 29 (Reuters) - Sunni militias that once fought U.S. troops are now seeking to join them, frustrated by al Qaeda’s influence in parts of Baghdad, a U.S. commander said on Friday. > > Maj. Gen. Joseph Fil, commander of U.S. forces in Baghdad, said working with the militias compensates for insufficient Iraqi police presence in some neighborhoods. > > “Some of them who have previously been fighting us have come to us as we’ve spoken with them and they want to fight with us,” Fil said. > > “They are tired of al Qaeda and the influence of al Qaeda in their tribes and in their neighborhoods and they want them cleaned out and they want to form an alliance in order to rid themselves of this blight.” > > The decision to work with militias, which had previously been cited by Washington as major forces of instability inside Baghdad, follows efforts in Anbar province to help Sunni Arab sheikhs combat Sunni Islamist al Qaeda. > > “We think it’s a very positive development, we’re excited about it. But we are frankly being cautious.” he said by videolink from Baghdad. > > The strategy of working with local sheikhs to develop tribal police to secure their own neighborhoods is being expanded to other areas of Iraq as well, U.S. generals say. > > “We’d like to do the same thing with some of the Shia groups as well,” Fil said. Are you saying the General is just making this up? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/53 "2007-06-30T18:23:15Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] Are you saying the General is just making this up? [/QUOTE] And this relates to the administrations’ exaggeration of the Al Qaeda presence in Iraq, how? We know there is AQ in Iraq, and we know they kill Sunnis as well as Shia. But we also know they are not the cause of the vast majority of the violence pitting Sunni against Shia. So, if Sunni insurgents wipe out AQ, it will not reduce the violence in Iraq by a significant amount. It will only allow the Sunnis and Shia to ramp up their civil war slaughter without annoying distractions like AQ. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/54 "2007-06-30T18:26:57Z")
Not quite on point, **Sam**. What we are suspicious of is the recent focus on Al Queda, or at least the recent PR about AlQ. This general may be telling the truth, the whole truth and nothing but, and so? He may be talking about a couple of isolated tribes with a grudge against AlQ (which might be entirely a matter of sectarian disagreement, we have no way to judge…). He may be talking about a widespread, nearly universal rejection of AlQ by Sunnis generally, again, no way to know. Or, he could be lying through his teeth, is there something about pinning some stars to his collar that renders him inherently reliable? Then its a pity that it doesn’t extend to the Commander in Chief. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/55 "2007-06-30T18:35:32Z")
I already posted a link to the actual press releases being put out by the MNF. Would anyone like to go through that and show me where there’s evidence that the emphasis has been changed to al-Qaida where events on the ground don’t warrant it? There’s no need to guess about this stuff - the entire archive is there for your perusal. Or would you rather stand on your vague impressons and gut feelings? You don’t suppose it’s possible that because you’re hostile to the administration and therefore sensitive to them making claims about al-Qaida, that there’s a bit of selection bias going on here? i.e. when you see ‘al-Qaida’ in a press release, it raises your hackles and causes you to remember it, but when the press release doesn’t mention them it gets ignored? And that this effect is probably magnified if you spend your time cruising lefty blogs, because they’ll scream and cry about the al-Qaida mentions and ignore the others? Or that maybe any increases in coverage of al-Qaida have more to do with A) the population being more cooperative and identifying them, so the U.S. military can actually tell the difference between al-Qaida and the other insurgent groups better than it could before, or B) that the U.S. is on a specific offensive to attack al-Qaida, and therefore they are more in the news now than they were before when the U.S. was essentially ignoring them because it had its hands-full with the ‘whack a mole’ strategy against local insurgents? There was a flurry of articles about al-Qaida in Iraq a few years ago, too - that was when Petraeus was leading his own men and managed to employ the same tactics in Mosul that he’s now using across the country - to the same effect. Once the population felt protected and secure by the ‘clear and hold’ strategy, they started coming forward to identify al-Qaida, because they hated them. The U.S. ran al-Qaida off and killed a lot of them that time around. Then Rumsfeld decided that Petraeus wasn’t playing by the proper ‘leaner faster’ strategy and replaced him with someone who took the boots off the ground and put them in Stryker combat vehicles and withdrew them from daily contact with the local population - and everything went to hell again. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/56 "2007-06-30T18:43:34Z")
Yes, **Sam** , we might be blinded by our own prejudices and presumptions. So might you. We can at least underscore our presumption by the simple fact that we have been lied to consistently and abundantly. What you got? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/57 "2007-06-30T19:02:31Z")
The Iraqis certainly are backing us all the way. > [@](#): > > Also, U.S.-led coalition forces killed about 26 people they described as “secret cell terrorists” and captured another 17 during raids in Baghdad’s Sadr City Saturday morning, the U.S. military said – an operation that brought an angry response from Iraq’s prime minister. > > … > > “The government will demand an explanation from the multinational forces about what happened in Sadr City earlier today,” said al-Maliki, who deplored what he characterized as attacks on civilians under the guise of “fighting terrorists and militias.” From [this](http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/06/30/iraq.main/index.html) multi-subject story. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/58 "2007-06-30T19:04:59Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Yes, **Sam** , we might be blinded by our own prejudices and presumptions. [/QUOTE] I suppose it’s _possible_ that the lads in charge have decided to start start telling us the truth, just when al Qaeda in Iraq comes into its full bloom as a _major player_. Still, given the admin’s track record on the truthiness front, that seems bloody unlikely, especially when one considers how _convenient_ it is for Mr. Bush and friends to be able to schlep this story just now. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/59 "2007-06-30T19:22:28Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Yes, **Sam** , we might be blinded by our own prejudices and presumptions. So might you. We can at least underscore our presumption by the simple fact that we have been lied to consistently and abundantly. What you got? [/QUOTE] I’ve got a link to the actual press release archives, where you can actually go count the mentions of al-Qaida. There’s no evidence of the kind of propaganda you are talking about. Good enough? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2007, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392/60 "2007-06-30T19:44:06Z")
[QUOTE=Sam Stone] I’ve got a link to the actual press release archives, where you can actually go count the mentions of al-Qaida. There’s no evidence of the kind of propaganda you are talking about… [/QUOTE] What evidence would there be? Do we expect a disclaimer? “The following release is propaganda, it is diseminated with the express intent to mislead and misrepresent.” Of course there is no evidence, one wouldn’t expect otherwise! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaeda-in-iraq-mutiplying-like-bread-and-fish/409392.md?page=4)