# Al Qaqaa: where the roadside bombs come from **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023 "2004-10-25T09:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/261 "2004-10-28T16:21:02Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > you know they’re very, very nervous about Tuesday. > > What just _amazes_ me about this, and it takes a lot to actually knock me back on my heels after four years of this talking chimpanzee in chief, is that someone in the Administration actually thought they could get away with blaming Russia, an ally led by someone who’s ostensibly pretty warm toward the Bush White House, for this debacle. If this isn’t the perfect definition of “break with reality”, I don’t know what is. It’s not “break with reality” so much as “winning the election is the highest level of reality.” At this point, it’s “screw Iraq (OK, it always _has_ been ‘screw Iraq’; that’s nothing new), screw Putin; the election’s five days away, and we’re desperate.” They figure that if they can pull it out, they can figure out how to make it up to Putin later; if they lose, then Putin’s not their problem anymore. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/262 "2004-10-28T16:29:56Z")
> [@laigle](#): > > It could be part of Iran/Pakistan/Saudi Arabia’s nuclear weapons program. These countries undoubtedly could acquire these dual use explosives on their own. However, acquisition via black market does lend itself to plausible deniability. Of couse, it may well be simpler for a country to divert such explosives from either indigenous production sites or from orders for legitimate uses [such as in oil drilling]. I have no idea what would be easier. Of course, if the price were right. . . I suspect that no matter when the stuff went missing and no matter whether the stuf was sold first or used directly by those who ‘liberated’ it from where it was kept, it was a knowledgeable member of the former military. Not only would it’ve taken the coordinated cooperation of a number of people, it would’ve taken someone who knew it was there in the first place. A member of the former military could’ve already had people in place and had a distribution/storage arrangement established, and thus seems more likely to’ve been able to pull this off quickly and surreptitiously than an _unassissted_ operation of an outside agency. Given that this stuff is apparently da bomb of bomb making materials it undoubtedly has an appreciable resale value. So, the parties with the sticky fingers may’ve retrieved the goods with merely an eye on their nest egg. Another option to toss around -freelancers. Possibly a former officer freelanced and decided to hedge his bets. He decided he’d better acquire some stock for a post invasion arms dealership. Maybe make enough to buy a new life in a foreign country. He came and filled a couple of pick up trucks at a time, (or even used military vehicles). Maybe he told his buddies who came and got some of their own. Maybe they all worked together. Given the notorious level of corruption in Iraq, this could’ve started after the IAEA inspection and before American troops arrived. Or, it just as easily could’ve happened after American troops had been there. Other sensitive sites _were_ looted to the foundations. It’s not like this was the only non-secure site. indigenous production sites [**e**. Warheads, Explosives, and Rocket/Missile Propulsion](http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/army/docs/astmp98/eb8.htm) A number of countries (including certain developing countries) have some capability of producing standard explosives such as TNT, RDX, nitroglycerin, ammonium perchlorate, metal fuels, hydrazine, and related compounds for military use. The U.S., France, the U.K., and Japan are the world leaders in formulation and production of advanced explosives and propellants.) oil drilling [ISLAND PYROCHEMICAL INDUSTRIES (IPI)](http://www.islandgroup.com/ExplosiveChemistry.html) … a specific grade of RDX containing 1% desensitizing wax and 0.5% graphite for the oil drilling industry. This grade of RDX is used to produce shaped charges such as open-faced perforators and encapsulated perforators. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/263 "2004-10-28T16:51:38Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Russia’s not too happy today. Of course they’re not. But their denial could be expected if they _were_ involved. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/264 "2004-10-28T17:00:35Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Of course they’re not. But their denial could be expected if they _were_ involved. Very true. Either way, scary. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/265 "2004-10-28T18:02:47Z")
[Comprehensive Report of the Special Advisor to the Director of Central Intelligence on Iraq’s Weapons of Mass Destruction](http://www.foia.cia.gov/duelfer/Iraqs_WMD_Vol2.pdf) _(huge .pdf)_ Vol2 p 72 (79) • Through a series of interviews with former MIC and NMD officials, ISG has discovered that Iraq since 1991 did not disclose the IRFNA production capability at **Al Qa** ’ **qa** ’ **a** to the UN. One NMD official claimed that Husayn Kamil had passed an order not to declare this capability to the UN and this order was observed even after Husayn Kamil’s death. Other officials claim that Iraq decided to withhold the IRFNA production capability of **Al Qa** ’ **qa** ’ **a** for fear that the UN would destroy the plant, _ **virtually closing Iraq’s extensive munitions industries** _. **Al Qa’qa’a was the heart of "Iraq’s extensive munitions industries."** ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/266 "2004-10-28T18:45:02Z")
I hate to interrupt the fun, but there’s one thing that’s gotten lost among all the Bush apologists trying to spin when the explosives disappeared from Al Qaqaa that I feel should be reiterated. We (meaning the United States) knew the explosives gone by mid-2003, so _why did it take so long for this news to come out?_ I mean, last I checked, we’re still supposed to be an open and democratic society, aren’t we? Which means we (the citizenry) should be kept informed of what’s going on in Iraq, even when it proves embarassing to the President. _So why weren’t we?_ Or does Bush think we’re all mushrooms, who should be kept in the dark and fed whatever bovine ca-ca he wants to throw at us? And no, I don’t buy the “We didn’t want the terrorists to know” excuse – that story only works if you think the folks who were smart enough to loot Al Qaqaa were also dumb enough to think it was a talcum powder factory. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/267 "2004-10-28T19:21:13Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > • Through a series of interviews with former MIC and NMD officials, ISG has discovered that Iraq since 1991 did not disclose the IRFNA production capability at **Al Qa** ’ **qa** ’ **a** to the UN. One NMD official claimed that Husayn Kamil had passed an order not to declare this capability to the UN and this order was observed even after Husayn Kamil’s death. Other officials claim that Iraq decided to withhold the IRFNA production capability of **Al Qa** ’ **qa** ’ **a** for fear that the UN would destroy the plant, _ **virtually closing Iraq’s extensive munitions industries** _. > **Al Qa’qa’a was the heart of "Iraq’s extensive munitions industries."** I’m not sure if it’s germane or not, but what’s “IRFNA”? Still, that pretty much shuts the door on any remotely reasonable excuse for the Bush Administration’s failing to keep track of what was happening with Al Qaqaa. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/268 "2004-10-28T19:23:01Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > I hate to interrupt the fun, but there’s one thing that’s gotten lost among all the Bush apologists trying to spin when the explosives disappeared from Al Qaqaa that I feel should be reiterated. > > We (meaning the United States) knew the explosives gone by mid-2003, so _why did it take so long for this news to come out?_ > > I mean, last I checked, we’re still supposed to be an open and democratic society, aren’t we? In theory. But with all they’ve been hiding from us, we’re going to need a Truth and Reconciliation Commission, like they had in Chile or South Africa, once we finally kick the Bushies out. ---
**Author:** ![NurseCarmen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/5daacb/32.png) [@NurseCarmen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NurseCarmen)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/269 "2004-10-28T19:27:04Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > I’m not sure if it’s germane or not, but what’s “IRFNA”? [Inhibited Red Fuming Nitric Acid](http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/irfna/) Sounds nice. Quick, use it in a sentence! ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/270 "2004-10-28T19:38:24Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Of course they’re not. But their denial could be expected if they _were_ involved. For all it’s worth, there were ex-Soviet top military doing something secret in Iraq just before the invasion. [This article](http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/04/02/Wedidntflyto.shtml) from Russian web media, first published April 2 2003, gives some information. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/271 "2004-10-28T20:04:12Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > For all it’s worth, there were ex-Soviet top military doing something secret in Iraq just before the invasion. > > [This article](http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/04/02/Wedidntflyto.shtml) from Russian web media, first published April 2 2003, gives some information. Oh my god. That directly contradicts the quote “…because all Russian military experts left Iraq when the international sanctions were introduced during the 1991 Gulf War” from my cite. Why why why would the Russians help Saddam, in any way? That’s a helluva find. Where’d you get that? Russian involvement or not, it’s starting to get chilly. _sigh_ I want to fast-forward and read the book. ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/272 "2004-10-28T20:04:51Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > We (meaning the United States) knew the explosives gone by mid-2003, so _why did it take so long for this news to come out?_ I don’t know but whatever the reason, the fact that it came out now is all the Democrats and the UN’s fault. 😉 And, how has the Iraqi Ministry of Science and Technology become an organ for the UN or the Democrats? Don’t ask distracting questions. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/273 "2004-10-28T21:27:49Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Oh my god. That directly contradicts the quote “…because all Russian military experts left Iraq when the international sanctions were introduced during the 1991 Gulf War” from my cite. Why why why would the Russians help Saddam, in any way? > > That’s a helluva find. Where’d you get that? > > Russian involvement or not, it’s starting to get chilly. > > _sigh_ I want to fast-forward and read the book. “He said there had been no Russian special forces in Iraq, only civilian specialists working for foreign firms.” ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/274 "2004-10-28T21:54:06Z")
As of April 15, 2004, per Paul Bremmer, al Qa Qaa was extensively looted and trashed. He estimated, according to a regulation he issued, that **more than one third of the buildings were destroyed, and looting and destruction of machines was estimated to be 85%.** What strikes me as odd is that this massive level of destruction and looting is not mentioned by either of the news crews, nor in any other reporting from April of 2003. It kind of sounds like it might have happened sometime after they were there. Here’s a PDF of the regulation: [http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/20040420\_CPAORD\_75\_Realignment\_of\_Military\_Industrial\_Companies\_\_with\_Annex\_A.pdf](http://www.iraqcoalition.org/regulations/20040420_CPAORD_75_Realignment_of_Military_Industrial_Companies__with_Annex_A.pdf) Here’s a link to where I found it: [Juan Cole](http://www.juancole.com/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/275 "2004-10-28T22:02:39Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > For all it’s worth, there were ex-Soviet top military doing something secret in Iraq just before the invasion. > > [This article](http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/04/02/Wedidntflyto.shtml) from Russian web media, first published April 2 2003, gives some information. According to that story, those were **retired** officers. Free-lance, mercenary military advisors, not agents of the Russian government. So, no, I don’t see any reason to believe they took the explosives with them back to Russia. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/276 "2004-10-28T22:08:02Z")
Bush says they weren’t bothering with that cache because they were looking for WMDs? Let’s see: 380 metric tonnes (1000 kg each) equals about 419 tons (2000 lbs each). If the explosive power of the material lost is rated at 1.75 times that of TNT, this gives us a yield of 733.25 tons or .73 kilotons if the whole pile were to be loaded on a ship and exploded at a dock in New York harbor. Little Boy had a yield of about 15 kilotons, so while we aren’t in Hiroshima territory, we are closing in on the explosive power of a one-kiloton suitcase nuke. But this wasn’t a weapon of mass destruction and thus not worth looking after. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/277 "2004-10-28T22:10:44Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Bush says they weren’t bothering with that cache because they were looking for WMDs? Let’s see: 380 metric tonnes It’s 350 metric tonnes. 380 already been converted. Apparently the total may be 100+ tons shy of this even as some of the RDX reported by the Iraqis is said to’ve been an old inaccurate tally. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/278 "2004-10-28T22:16:35Z")
> [@](#): > > **Scylla** : I’m simply saying that if you want to argue that the explosives disapeared under Bush’s watch you need to demonstrate that they were in there at a time when it can reasonably be shown that we were responsible for them. > > I don’t beleive that such a time can be reasonably argued to occur before the fall of Baghdad. > > Therefore, to have any argument whatsoever, the presence of this 384 tons of explosives must be conclusively demonstrated to have been on site after the fall of Baghdad. > > There is no such proof. > > To make the argument without such proof is to engage in a willful deception. A lie. > [@](#): > > **RT Firefly** : The infantry arrived on April 3, and left the next day. The cavalry arrived on April 9, and left the next day. Neither one had inventorying or securing the site as part of its mission. And nobody else whose mission it was seemed to be available. That’s because the ivory-tower theorist who calls himself Secretary of Defense thought he knew better than the generals, and decided we didn’t really need 300K or so troops there after all. Please excuse me if the following news article has already been addressed. I think that it adds to **RT Firefly’s** comment: An excerpt from [this](http://start.earthlink.net/newsarticle?cat=0&aid=D860LI8O1_story) Earthlink news story: > [@](#): > > VIENNA, Austria - **U.S. officials were warned** about the vulnerability of explosives stored at Iraq’s Al-Qaqaa military installation after another facility - the country’s main nuclear complex - was looted in April 2003, the U.N. nuclear agency said Thursday. > > The International Atomic Energy Agency cautioned American officials directly about what was kept at Al-Qaqaa, the main storage facility in Iraq for so-called high explosives, spokeswoman Melissa Fleming said.(bolding added) Why wasn’t securing the site part of their mission? I realize that the area is extremely large. Did we need more troops on the ground? **DtC** , I have to disagree with you. Dodging the draft is honorable under certain circumstances, true. I also think that going AWOL is honorable under circumstances. It is _not_ honorable to advocate war, use your Daddy’s power to jump line to secure a relatively safe situation while someone else takes your place in combat and _then_ go AWOL. **Razorsharp** , I don’t want you to misunderstand the peace movement. Most people who were against the war did not turn a “blind eye” to “draft dodgers.” Many were actively involved in helping young men to find ways to avoid the draft and are proud that they were able to make a contribution in that way. Whether you understand it or not, it was a matter of conscience. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/279 "2004-10-28T22:55:37Z")
Quite right. Pip, pip. Good show, that. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2004, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/280 "2004-10-28T23:20:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > According to that story, those were **retired** officers. Free-lance, mercenary military advisors, not agents of the Russian government. So, no, I don’t see any reason to believe they took the explosives with them back to Russia. There is no indication that they have. In fact, there is no indication what they were doing in Iraq at all. As for retired, please note they came on the losing side of anti-Gorbachev _putsch_, which means they were hard-core Soviet military top brass. Such people have deep roots in Russia still. Of course they were not officially connected to Kremlin. Just like US advisors in Afghanistan in 1980-s didn’t know what ‘Pentagon’ is. Here’s [another vignette](http://www.islamonline.net/english/news/2003-04/06/article14.shtml) from April 6, 2003. It involves US troops shooting Russian diplomatic convoy speeding into Syria. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=15)