# Al Qaqaa: where the roadside bombs come from **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023 "2004-10-25T09:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/301 "2004-10-29T02:43:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > You know for a minute there when I clicked on the links I thought you might have had something. I should know better by now. > > As usual, you guys make certain pronouncements from ambiguous information… Whereas you, on the other hand, take cold hard facts and try to introduce ambiguity. > [@](#): > > …May have been at Al Qaqaa. Wow! That’s proof… Well, maybe not necessarily. Could be some other location, close enough to confuse GPS location finding, that was stocked to the rafters with barrels marked “Explosive” and got IAEA seals all over them. Must be hundreds of them, right around there. So maybe it was someplace else. So you want to suggest those videos were taken somewhere else? Really want to try to make that fly? You sure? > [@](#): > > “On Wednesday, 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS e-mailed still images of the footage taken at the site to experts in Washington to see if the items captured on tape are the same kind of high explosives that went missing in Al Qaqaa. Those experts could not make that determination” > **[Video Suggests Explosives Disappeared After U.S. Took Control](https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=206847)** > [@](#): > > …I talked to a former inspector who’s a colleague of mine, and he confirmed that, indeed, these pictures look just like what he remembers seeing inside those bunkers," said David Albright, president of the Institute for Science and International Security in Washington. > > The barrels were found inside sealed bunkers, which American soldiers are seen on the videotape cutting through. Inspectors from the International Atomic Energy Agency sealed the bunkers where the explosives were kept just before the war began. > > “The seal’s critical,” Albright said. _“The fact that there’s a photo of what looks like an IAEA seal means that what’s behind those doors is HMX. They only sealed bunkers that had HMX in them.”…_ > [@](#): > > …Your cite says itself that it does not prove what you say it proves… From the same cite: > [@](#): > > …which had a crew embedded with the 101st Airborne Division when it passed through Al-Qaqaa on April 18, 2003 — nine days after Baghdad fell… You think they didn’t know what day they were there? I really don’t get what you’re trying to say… > [@](#): > > Personally, I don’t have a stake in this or a preference one way or the other. I really don’t. It doesn’t matter to me. Yeah. Good ol’ open minded, non-partisan **Scylla** Contrast and compare with: > [@](#): > > …From where I stand, your claim is disingenuous… ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/302 "2004-10-29T02:50:49Z")
> [@Scylla on the evening of 10/28/2004](#): > > As usual, you guys make certain pronouncements from ambiguous information. > [@Scylla on the evening of 10/27/2004](#): > > We all understand that this explosive was gone from the complex before Baghdad fell, right? Possibly it’s been gone for several years as Iraq claimed to be taking some for use in concrete making related demolition. > > We understand that this was reported on April 9, before Baghdad fell by an NBC embed with the 101st Cavalry, picked up by CNN, CBS, and the NYT, right? > > We all also understand that CBS, the NYT, Cnn and et al decided to ignore their own archives and falsely report that this stuff had gone missing under Bush’s watch. > > [Further harping about how this shows the “abuse and erosion of the fourth estate” omitted.] No comment necessary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/303 "2004-10-29T02:54:39Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > To further muddy the waters, here’s a story with photos released by the Pentagon today… Boy, what a blockbuster! No doubt about it, those photos establish, beyond any question or ambiguity, that the Al Kaka cite was _accessible by truck_! ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/304 "2004-10-29T03:03:25Z")
[GlobalSecurity.org](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/al_qa_qaa-imagery4.htm) has an analysis of the pentagon’s new photo up, along with other satellite shots, and maps of the site identifying the bunkers in which HMX was kept: > [@](#): > > a comparison of features in the DoD-released imagery with available commercial satellite imagery, combined with the use of an IAEA map showing the location of bunkers used to store the HMX explosives, reveals that **the trucks pictured on the DoD image are not at any of the nine bunkers indentified by the IAEA as containing the missing explosive stockpiles.** ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/305 "2004-10-29T03:05:51Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > OK, somebody has to ask the dumb question. Al Kaka is a munitions dump, yes? In part. It was also a site for the production and testing of munitions. There’re a number of smaller related sites nearby as well. Apparently, it was central to Iraq’s munitions industry. Some have even called it “**[the main high explosives storage facility in Iraq](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136897,00.html)**.” > [@elucidator](#): > > Lots of rockets and shit. Weapons. Now, if the Iraqi’s got the notion that they were under some sort of military threat from, oh, say, Costa Rica and the Seychelles and lets _not_ forget Poland…wouldn’t one sort of expect trucks to be bustling in and out picking up some, like, muntions? From the munitions dump. Which brings us to the question, “ **Why isn** ’ **t there more activity _recorded_ at the site**?” ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/306 "2004-10-29T03:07:23Z")
[Here](http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/29/politics/29bomb.html?hp&ex=1099022400&en=3386d85551d694e2&ei=5094&partner=homepage) is the New York Times article about the Minneapolis news film crew’s video tape and the reasons why they believe it is from Al Qaada, along with why the Iraqi ministry believes the explosives were there up through April 9 (although they admit that they can’t be positive). ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/307 "2004-10-29T03:07:55Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > To further muddy the waters, here’s a story with photos released by the Pentagon today. > > The photos were taken on March 17, and show a bunch of trucks at the facility. > > [http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136897,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136897,00.html) [nitpick] “two big trucks” = a bunch ? [/nitpick] ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/308 "2004-10-29T03:12:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > No doubt about it, those photos establish, beyond any question or ambiguity, that the Al Kaka cite was _accessible by truck_! Senior Defense officials released the photo merely to show that the Al-Qaqaa facility “was not hermetically sealed.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/309 "2004-10-29T03:15:22Z")
> [@](#): > > …nitpick = bunch… Gaggle of geese, murder of crows, college of owls, bunch of trucks, herd of cats. Any plural. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/310 "2004-10-29T03:31:58Z")
“ **Well** , **at least with regard to this one bunker** , **and the film shows one seal** , **one bunker** , **one group of soldiers going through** , **and there were others there that were sealed**. **With this one** , **I think it is game** , **set** , **and match**. **There was HMX** , **RDX in there**.” _–Dr. David Kay_ ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/311 "2004-10-29T03:38:22Z")
[Further imagery](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/al_qa_qaa-imagery4.htm) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/312 "2004-10-29T03:44:02Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Gaggle of geese, murder of crows, college of owls, bunch of trucks, herd of cats. Any plural. Skulk of foxes, slouch of apes, slime of neocons… ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/313 "2004-10-29T04:01:48Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Personally, I don’t have a stake in this or a preference one way or the other. I really don’t. It doesn’t matter to me. 😛😛😛😛😛 ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/314 "2004-10-29T04:08:39Z")
And now there I’ve seen reports that the IAEA seals could not be effective because there were [ventilation shafts](http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/10/29/military/17_06_1210_28_04.txt) in the sides of the bunkers large enough to provide access. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/315 "2004-10-29T04:12:03Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > And now there I’ve seen reports that the IAEA seals could not be effective because there were [ventilation shafts](http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/10/29/military/17_06_1210_28_04.txt) in the sides of the bunkers large enough to provide access. 300+ tons moved via ventilation shafts :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/316 "2004-10-29T04:17:36Z")
Every 2 hours since this story broke, we’ve watched the White House fling a new piece of figurative poo at it in an attempt to drown it in slime. And every piece that’s been flung has either been transparently ridiculous or proven false. Bush supporters, have you, at long last, no shame? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/317 "2004-10-29T04:43:13Z")
OK, got it! Russian Mafia recruits disgruntled soldiers to swipe Iraqi bang-nasty, in collussion with Uday Hussein…(not dead. Mossad plot. But I digress…) Mysterious disappearances of midgets throughout Europe, kidnapped and pressed into service as ventilation shaft mules, 5 kilos per midget per trip, 10,000 midgets, 6 hours tops. Explosive on sale to highest bidder. Terrorst shmerrorist, _rubles_ talk, Allah walks. Or they might just sell the whole load to Uzbekistan. Or maybe they have Georgia on thier mind… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/318 "2004-10-29T04:53:54Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > And now there I’ve seen reports that the IAEA seals could not be effective because there were [ventilation shafts](http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/10/29/military/17_06_1210_28_04.txt) in the sides of the bunkers large enough to provide access. So we’re supposed to believe the folks at the IAEA wouldn’t have thought of this, and placed a few seals across the ventilation shafts as well? :dubious: To summarize via Occam’s Razor: the stuff was still at Al Qaqaa as of 4/18/2003, as confirmed by the ABC video. It got looted between that date and 5/31/2003 because the Bush Administration didn’t bother to secure the site. And now 380 tons of high explosives are rattling around loose inside Iraq, another testament to the George W. Bush legacy. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![emarkp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3be4f8/32.png) [@emarkp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emarkp)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/319 "2004-10-29T05:06:14Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > So we’re supposed to believe the folks at the IAEA wouldn’t have thought of this, and placed a few seals across the ventilation shafts as well? :dubious: It was the IAEA report which explicitly stated the limitations of the seals because of the ventilation **slats** (I incorrectly wrote “shafts” in my post). > [@](#): > > To summarize via Occam’s Razor: the stuff was still at Al Qaqaa as of 4/18/2003, as confirmed by the ABC video. It got looted between that date and 5/31/2003 because the Bush Administration didn’t bother to secure the site. And just how does Ockham’s Razor account for the multiplying of entities to include secret heavy trucks getting into the bunkers and removing the material on a road covered by US air and ground troops? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/320 "2004-10-29T05:15:04Z")
Don’t know that. Know it was there. Know _when_ it was there. Know it’s not there now. That’s pretty much it, for what we know. Not much. But enough. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=17)