# Al Qaqaa: where the roadside bombs come from **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023 "2004-10-25T09:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/321 "2004-10-29T05:19:40Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > It was the IAEA report which explicitly stated the limitations of the seals because of the ventilation **slats** (I incorrectly wrote “shafts” in my post). Still, while these may be adequate to permit entry and exit of humans, they’re unlikely to be the sort of openings one can drive a forklift through. With 300+tons, somebody’s bound to be driving the lift. > [@emarkp](#): > > And just how does Ockham’s Razor account for the multiplying of entities to include secret heavy trucks getting into the bunkers and removing the material on a road covered by US air and ground troops? One could suppose the same way that other sensitive sites with nuclear weapons related materials were looted literally to their concrete foundations (walls and everything gone). Possibly the road wasn’t covered by US air and ground troops enough to prevent this from happening. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/322 "2004-10-29T05:20:42Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > [GlobalSecurity.org](http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/world/iraq/al_qa_qaa-imagery4.htm) has an analysis of the pentagon’s new photo up, along with other satellite shots, and maps of the site identifying the bunkers in which HMX was kept: Thanks Squink (and SimonX). Those are fascinating. It only takes a minute to locate which bunker the trucks are in front of, in relation to where the explosives are in that same area (right behind). What a load of crock Pentagon!! Fox has no shame. Next we’ll be seeing crudely-drawn stick figures carrying perspective boxes disappearing down a hole in the ground. Hey, it worked for Colin. If this weren’t so deadly serious, it’d be highly amusing. Though, midgets, slime of neocons…haha! Good ones el and jayjay ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/323 "2004-10-29T05:24:24Z")
> [@Equipoise](#): > > Those are fascinating. It only takes a minute to locate which bunker the trucks are in front of, in relation to where the explosives are in that same area (right behind). What a load of crock Pentagon!! Fox has no shame. Next we’ll be seeing crudely-drawn stick figures carrying perspective boxes disappearing down a hole in the ground. Senior Defense officials released the photo merely to show that the Al-Qaqaa facility “was not hermetically sealed.” **"All we’re saying is this is two big trucks in front of a bunker."** ---
**Author:** ![shelbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3d9bf3/32.png) [@shelbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shelbo)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/324 "2004-10-29T05:32:16Z")
You know, the 380 tons of HMX or whatever is a little beside the point. This was, according to many of the cites contained in this thread, one of _the most significant weapons production and storage site in the entire country of Iraq_. Besides the HMX, it clearly contained other deadly weapons, probably RPGs, ammunition, artilary shells, all of the stuff you normally find at _significant weapons production and storage areas_. It was well known to contain TONS of HIGH EXPLOSIVES. TONS!!! It was not, ever, secured. NOT SECURED. Looting was happening at the site within the LAST MONTH. I don’t care if the looters were taking firecrackers and wrist rockets – the fact that there was any looting at all is a humiliating disgrace. There should have been a specific group detailed to be in charge of that facility. They should have been told what was there. They should have been trained in advance for that particular job. And NO ONE should have been allowed to GET WITHIN A MILE of the place. I have the same sick feeling in my stomach that I got when the Abu Garahib story came to light. My god, what the hell is going on over there? Who is running this show?! ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/325 "2004-10-29T05:41:08Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Senior Defense officials released the photo merely to show that the Al-Qaqaa facility “was not hermetically sealed.” > > **"All we’re saying is this is two big trucks in front of a bunker."** Yep, you’re right. Good CYA Pentagon! And Fox ran with it _snort_. > [@shelbo](#): > > the fact that there was any looting at all is a humiliating disgrace. If it gets the public to look up from their dinners… I agree with everything you say, but personally, I think the 100,000+ innocent Iraqi dead is much more of a humiliating disgrace. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/326 "2004-10-29T06:16:37Z")
> [@emarkp](#): > > And just how does Ockham’s Razor account for the multiplying of entities to include secret heavy trucks getting into the bunkers and removing the material on a road covered by US air and ground troops? It remains to be shown that the road to Al Qaqaa was truly “covered by US air and ground troops.” To quote from the [embedded news reporters](http://kstp.com/article/stories/S3723.html?cat=1) who were there on 4/18/2003, > [@](#): > > Officers with the 101st Airborne told 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS that the bunkers were within the U.S. military perimeter and protected. But Caffrey and former 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS Reporter Dean Staley, who spent three months togetherin Iraq, said **Iraqis were coming and going freely.** > > “At one point there was a group of Iraqis driving around in a pick-up truck,” Staley said. “Threeor four guys we kept an eye on, worried they might come near us.” ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 6:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/327 "2004-10-29T06:39:04Z")
Interesting angle. Maybe not a coordinated effort involving big honking 18-wheelers. Maybe just a bunch of guys with pickup trucks. First time they find it, they fill up thier trucks and run sell it to somebody. They come back and are no doubt amazed to find it _still_ not guarded, but hey, go for it! They call up thier cousins and thier brother in law, anybody whos got a truck, come and get it! Free money! Entrepreneurship! Beauty part is: don’t even need to fight over it. Plenty for everybody! But I can’t help thinking of a _Kelly’s Heroes_ take on this: white guys in trucks that either are US trucks or _look_ like US trucks, who’s gonna stop them and ask them questions? I mean, if they weren’t concerned enough to guard the place, they aren’t going to be pulling people over to find out if they got what they don’t know is missing. Or maybe not even US Army trucks, disguised or otherwise. What kind of trucks do the logistical contractors drive? Commerical trucks, yes? With nothing more than corporate logos painted on the side to attest to their _bona fides_. Trucks with corporate markings that identify them as contractors wouldn’t be stopped or even noticed. Which brings us, of course, to Haliburton. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/328 "2004-10-29T06:53:32Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Interesting angle. Maybe not a coordinated effort involving big honking 18-wheelers. Maybe just a bunch of guys with pickup trucks. First time they find it, they fill up thier trucks and run sell it to somebody. They come back and are no doubt amazed to find it _still_ not guarded, but hey, go for it! They call up thier cousins and thier brother in law, anybody whos got a truck, come and get it! Free money! Entrepreneurship! > > Beauty part is: don’t even need to fight over it. Plenty for everybody! > > But I can’t help thinking of a _Kelly’s Heroes_ take on this: white guys in trucks that either are US trucks or _look_ like US trucks, who’s gonna stop them and ask them questions? I mean, if they weren’t concerned enough to guard the place, they aren’t going to be pulling people over to find out if they got what they don’t know is missing. > > Or maybe not even US Army trucks, disguised or otherwise. What kind of trucks do the logistical contractors drive? Commerical trucks, yes? With nothing more than corporate logos painted on the side to attest to their _bona fides_. Trucks with corporate markings that identify them as contractors wouldn’t be stopped or even noticed. > > Which brings us, of course, to Haliburton. Good theories on the trucks. Maybe the FBI will get some info during their investigation. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/329 "2004-10-29T07:19:47Z")
**"All we’re saying is this is two big trucks in front of a bunker."** Of course, that’s utter bullshit. If Rumsfeld were doing anything other than attempting to confuse the issue of when the material dissapeared, he’d have taken the time to have his image analysts vet the image vs maps and known facts in the same way that Global Security did. If I were in one of the government’s image analysis groups, I’d be highly pissed that the secretary of defence did such a sloppy job of checking his ‘intelligence information’ that the story only held up to a few hours of scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 8:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/330 "2004-10-29T08:03:08Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > For all it’s worth, there were ex-Soviet top military doing something secret in Iraq just before the invasion. > > [This article](http://www.gazeta.ru/2003/04/02/Wedidntflyto.shtml) from Russian web media, first published April 2 2003, gives some information. Interesting. I note it is ex-generals, not serving generals but even so. I do want to be the first to thank them for the outstanding job they did honing Iraq’s army into the killing machine it proved to be. They couldn’t have done better if they were saboteurs. None of this contradicts the evidence posted that the explosives were there after the USA won. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/331 "2004-10-29T08:07:13Z")
> [@rjung](#): > > So we’re supposed to believe the folks at the IAEA wouldn’t have thought of this, and placed a few seals across the ventilation shafts as well? :dubious: > > To summarize via Occam’s Razor: the stuff was still at Al Qaqaa as of 4/18/2003, as confirmed by the ABC video. It got looted between that date and 5/31/2003 because the Bush Administration didn’t bother to secure the site. > > And now 380 tons of high explosives are rattling around loose inside Iraq, another testament to the George W. Bush legacy. :smack: Look, don’t rush to conclusions. I’ve carefully re-read this thread and note that no-one has proven that teleporter armed aliens, allied to Bin Laden, the Chinese and survivors from the lost city of Atlantis weren’t responsible. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/332 "2004-10-29T08:11:41Z")
> [@shelbo](#): > > You know, the 380 tons of HMX or whatever is a little beside the point. This was, according to many of the cites contained in this thread, one of _the most significant weapons production and storage site in the entire country of Iraq_. Besides the HMX, it clearly contained other deadly weapons, probably RPGs, ammunition, artilary shells, all of the stuff you normally find at _significant weapons production and storage areas_. It was well known to contain TONS of HIGH EXPLOSIVES. TONS!!! It was not, ever, secured. NOT SECURED. Looting was happening at the site within the LAST MONTH. I don’t care if the looters were taking firecrackers and wrist rockets – the fact that there was any looting at all is a humiliating disgrace. There should have been a specific group detailed to be in charge of that facility. They should have been told what was there. They should have been trained in advance for that particular job. And NO ONE should have been allowed to GET WITHIN A MILE of the place. > > I have the same sick feeling in my stomach that I got when the Abu Garahib story came to light. My god, what the hell is going on over there? Who is running this show?! Ab-so-friggin’-lutely. This is the bottom line. There is simply no excuse whatsoever for not having seized and kept hold of this strategic facility from the very off. I blame totally Bush for his complacent swallowing of the Iranian agent Chalabi’s liberation bullshit, Rumsfeld for the totally inadequate planning and troop numbers and Cheney for being the real man in charge. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/333 "2004-10-29T09:00:30Z")
And if this hasn’t been quoted already. [CNN transcript](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0410/28/asb.01.html) ( > [@](#): > > BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) > > MCINTYRE (voice-over): The Pentagon’s argument that the stockpile of powerful HMX explosive was likely long gone from the al Qa Qaa facility when U.S. troops arrived in April of 2003 was seriously undercut by this video shot by Minneapolis television station KSTP. > > Reporter Dean Staley was embedded with soldiers from the 101st Airborne Division when they entered a locked bunker at the al Qa Qaa facility on April 18, 2003, nearly a month into the war but to get in, they cut what now appears to be an International Atomic Energy Agency seal. > > DEAN STALEY, FMR. KSTP-TV REPORTER: We thought it might have been some sort of bobby trap because it was such a thin wire but we broke the lock and broke that wire to get in. > > MCINTYRE: That IAEA seal, arms experts tell CNN, is the strongest evidence yet that at least some of the missing explosives were inside because HMX was the only material placed under seal at al Qa Qaa and the reporter says the troops he was with were on an unofficial mission just looking around. They were not searching for or securing any material. There was, he said, nothing to stop anyone from looting. > [@](#): > > BROWN: OK, back to the explosives the who and when and the how of it all but on the question of when, as we saw at the top of the program, there is new information to factor in, pretty conclusive to our eye. > > So, we’ll sort through this now, take the politics out of it and try and deal with facts with former head U.N. weapons inspector – U.S. weapons inspector David Kay. David, it’s nice to see you. > > DAVID KAY, FMR. U.S. WEAPONS INSPECTOR: Good to be with you, Aaron. > > (big snip) > > KAY: And, particularly on the videotape, which is actually better than the still photos, as the soldier dips into it that’s either HMX or RDX. I don’t know of anything else in al Qa Qaa that was in that form. > > BROWN: Let me ask you then, David, the question I asked Jamie. In regard to the dispute about whether that stuff was there when the Americans arrived, is it game, set, match? Is that part of the argument now over? > > KAY: Well, at least with regard to this one bunker and the film shows one seal, one bunker, one group of soldiers going through and there were others there that were sealed, with this one, I think it is game, set and match. > > There was HMX, RDX in there. The seal was broken and quite frankly to me the most frightening thing is not only is the seal broken and the lock broken but the soldiers left after opening it up. I mean to rephrase the so-called (UNINTELLIGIBLE) rule if you open an arms bunker, you own it. You have to provide security. Game over. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/334 "2004-10-29T09:18:39Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > “Using GPS technology and talking with members of the 101st Airborne Division, 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS has determined the crew embedded with the troops may have been on the southern edge of the Al Qaqaa” > > May have been at Al Qaqaa. Wow! That’s proof. > > “On Wednesday, 5 EYEWITNESS NEWS e-mailed still images of the footage taken at the site to experts in Washington to see if the items captured on tape are the same kind of high explosives that went missing in Al Qaqaa. Those experts could not make that determination” > > So ABC has attempted to prove if that stuff is the same kind of stuff that went missing, and were unable to do so. No, you’re totally right. It must have been the _other_ bunkers filled with tons of those _other_ explosives under those _other_ IAEA seals within a klick or two of the al Qaqaa area. And that David Kay, the guy who confirmed that this was the HMX in question in an interview on ABC (“With this one, I think it is game, set, and match. There was HMX, RDX in there.”), must be some _other_ guy, who’s also called David Kay, right? Because he couldn’t be [this guy](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kay): > [@](#): > > Kay worked as Chief Scientist for the Pentagon from 1983 to 1988 and also was the UN Chief Weapons Inspector from 1983 to 1992. Following that, he was Vice President of Science Applications Internatinal Corporation (SAIC) from 1993 to 2002. While at SAIC, he worked alongside of Stephen Hatfill until March 2002. Then, he was appointed as a Special Advisor for Strategy regarding Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMD) Programs. He received the International Atomic Energy Agency’s Distinguished Service Award and the U.S. Secretary of State’s Commendation. It’s a QED. The three things you asked us to prove have been proven beyond any reasonable doubt. Take it like a man. ---
**Author:** ![slumtrimpet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@slumtrimpet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slumtrimpet)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/335 "2004-10-29T10:01:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **shelbo** > I have the same sick feeling in my stomach that I got when the Abu Garahib story came to light. My god, what the hell is going on over there? Who is running this show?! Abu Ghraib? Wazzat? (_rifles through memory file…ahhh, That Abu Ghraib … that’s all taken care of … buncha yahoo cowboy enlisted types - charged, whatever. No worries_) Seriously? Is it possible that this “little oops” might stay in the collective memory of the American voter for…oh…say…4-5 days? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/336 "2004-10-29T11:32:45Z")
This is absolutely unbelieveable. The KSTP video is the smoking gun with fingerprints and DNA all over it. How will Bush and his apolgists explain this one away? The jugular is exposed for Kerry, all he need do is sink his teeth in for all its worth. You don’t need to be an officer to know that this is ineptitude of the highest degree. You don’t seize ammo dumps (and we have video proof that they were known to be full) and then leave them unguarded among the unfriendly locals. As Harry Truman said, the Buck Stops Here on the president’s desk. Bush would like you to believe that the buck starts there and that he has never made a mistake, but now we all know better. Our troops are in danger from explosives that George Bush failed to secure. There simply is no excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/337 "2004-10-29T11:54:30Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Personally, I don’t have a stake in this or a preference one way or the other. I really don’t. It doesn’t matter to me. > [@Aesop](#): > > … Taking a few steps back, the fox jumped and just missed the hanging grapes. Again the fox took a few paces back and tried to reach them but still failed. > > Finally, giving up, the fox turned up his nose and said, “They’re probably sour anyway,” and proceeded to walk away. Boy, that Aesop was something else. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/338 "2004-10-29T12:07:08Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > What kind of trucks do the logistical contractors drive? Commerical trucks, yes? With nothing more than corporate logos painted on the side to attest to their _bona fides_. Trucks with corporate markings that identify them as contractors wouldn’t be stopped or even noticed. > > **Which brings us, of course, to Haliburton.** (Bolding mine) This actually makes pretty good sense. Haliburton had the motive (profit), means (lotsa’ trucks and other equipment) and opportunity to swipe the explosives. It’s a better explanation than a disorganized bunch of looters spiriting 386 tons away in the middle of the night. ---
**Author:** ![Razorsharp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/53a042/32.png) [@Razorsharp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razorsharp)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/339 "2004-10-29T12:07:20Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > **Razorsharp** , I don’t want you to misunderstand the peace movement. Most people who were against the war did not turn a “blind eye” to “draft dodgers.” Many were actively involved in helping young men to find ways to avoid the draft and are proud that they were able to make a contribution in that way. Whether you understand it or not, it was a matter of conscience. Oh, I have no problem with that, what chaps my ass are those who give approval to one person evading service, but condemning another for evading service, based soley on that person’s political persuasion. Tell me, do you just not see the hypocrisy? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2004, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/340 "2004-10-29T12:41:52Z")
> [@Razorsharp](#): > > Oh, I have no problem with that, what chaps my ass are those who give approval to one person evading service, but condemning another for evading service, based soley on that person’s political persuasion. > > Tell me, do you just not see the hypocrisy? Tell me, are you deliberately obtuse? Let me name the Great Bogeyman that you’re hinting at here. Clinton. There is a substantive difference between what Clinton did and what Bush did. Clinton went through all legal channels to avoid the draft, because he was opposed to the war overall. Bush got Poppy to get him into a rich-sons unit because he didn’t want to go to war himself, and then pretty much avoided actually serving even in that privileged unit, while cheerleading the war at the same time. In other words, one didn’t want anyone to die in Vietnam. And one was fine with people dying in Vietnam as long as it wasn’t him. You do the math. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=18)