# Al Qaqaa: where the roadside bombs come from **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 25, 2004, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023 "2004-10-25T09:43:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 22
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/421 "2004-10-30T18:56:42Z")
It’s been a while, but I seem to recall that the military engaged in some lightning strikes to secure oil facilities early in the war. Special forces were engaged in secret missions throughout Iraq. Some oil wells WERE set on fire, but rapid response put them out. Saddam’s communications were disrupted rapidly from ‘shock and awe’, which paralized his entire command and control. Maybe I’m wrong, since I’m operating from memory here, but why do you assume that Saddam didn’t try to set his oil wells on fire? Or try to blow his dams? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/422 "2004-10-30T19:08:50Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This whole explosives thing is overblown anyway. Is there any evidence that terrorists have lacked for explosives in the past? Explosives are relatively easy to make, and commercial explosives are readily available. Plus, Iraq is like a large munitions dump. The U.S. military has kicked in plenty of ‘residential’ homes and found crate after crate of explosives and other weapons. They could have landed a million soldiers in that country and not been able to secure every site. These weren’t just “explosives,” but in fact nuclear grade HE that were put under seal by the IAEA. While one can throw up their hands and go “hey, a little HE explosive here, a little there, who’s counting?” this seems pretty amusing coming from someone who not too long ago was a finger-wagging stickler for weapons containment and holding people accountable to their international obligations to secure dangerous weapons. It’s only misleading to focus on these particular explosives insofar as it fails to give people a picture of just how widespread these sorts of incidents were, how many times unknown looters took incredibly dangerous materials that had previously been secure, under guard, and under seal and carted them off to heaven knows where. The net result is that all sorts of dangerous materials were dispersed far and wide, where before they had been contained. And if you don’t think failing to plan for that potential result is an incredibly foolish oversight of any “security” policy, then you are just plain lying to yourself. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/423 "2004-10-30T19:10:57Z")
Oh, Lord love a duck! Fine! Let’s just grant that, that Saddam was determined to wreak havoc on his own country in a Hitlerian fit of pique, and was restrained only by the firm leadership and prescient wisdom of GeeDubya (Praise the Leader!) Lets open the Presidential Ledger at make an entry on the “Good!” page…hmmmmm…“catastrophic success”…no…hamfisted diplomacy…no…economy hellbound, via handbasket…no… well, its gotta be there somewhere. I’ll keep looking. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/424 "2004-10-30T20:01:22Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > And for good reason. I note that when people talk about the many failures of the Bush administration, they tend to gloss over the fact that everyone thought Saddam would light all the oil wells, causing an ecological catastrophe and eliminating Iraq’s ability to build itself back up. That it didn’t happen should be to the administration’s credit, but instead it gets spun into an oil conspiracy. Not that there aren’t legitimate objections as well as useless ones that you mention, but- True dat. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > This whole explosives thing is overblown anyway. Is there any evidence that terrorists have lacked for explosives in the past? Explosives are relatively easy to make, and commercial explosives are readily available. Perhaps, as you suggest, our efforts to control access to military explosives were misguided. Perhaps, though, limiting the availability to explosives is a good idea. In any case, the fact that professional terrorists can purchase and smuggle explosives across borders seems irrelevant to leaving hundreds of thousands of tons of easily accessible explosives undguarded. This vast sea of unguarded explosives made munitions available to even the average Iraqi Ali Sixpack with a grudge and a hair up his butt. Which is a beautiful segue to your next point > [@Sam Stone](#): > > The U.S. military has kicked in plenty of ‘residential’ homes and found crate after crate of explosives and other weapons. Plenty of Iraqis residing in their “‘residential’ homes” (as you put it) may have gotten a hair up their butt. > [@Sam Stone](#): > > They could have landed a million soldiers in that country and not been able to secure every site. I find this claim to be very dubious; however, I doubt you have a citation for it. Personally, I think that the capabilities of our men and women in uniform are greater than you give them credit for inthis instance. But, alas, I have no citation either- only my faith in the ability of the US military personel. Another question (in addition to the original question you raise about the wisdom of devoting any resources to securing the hundreds of thousands of tons of munitions) is whether or not they could have secured _at least_ the major sites that were well known. And if not all of those at least maybe “\*\*[the main high explosives storage facility in Iraq\*\*](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136897,00.html).” ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/425 "2004-10-30T20:05:08Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > And for good reason. I note that when people talk about the many failures of the Bush administration, they tend to gloss over the fact that everyone thought Saddam would light all the oil wells, causing an ecological catastrophe and eliminating Iraq’s ability to build itself back up. That it didn’t happen should be to the administration’s credit, but instead it gets spun into an oil conspiracy. Seeing how much grief you’re taking over this, let me discuss the issue further. I think that the planner do deserve credit for what they did get right. The efforts are worthy of praise. It’s good that catastrophes that were prevented. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/426 "2004-10-30T20:10:44Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > This whole explosives thing is overblown anyway. I disagree. This whole issue is dynamite! 😃 > [@](#): > > Plus, Iraq is like a large munitions dump. Exactly. And our plan for controlling these weapons when we invaded was…? > [@](#): > > The U.S. military has kicked in plenty of ‘residential’ homes and found crate after crate of explosives and other weapons. They could have landed a million soldiers in that country and not been able to secure every site. _I_ shouldn’t have to be reminding _you_, Sam, that Saddam was a dictator. You think there were explosives in every neighborhood when he was still in charge? Of course not; somebody could’ve used them against his regime So where did the insurgents get the explosives? From the frickin’ munitions dumps, of course. Al-Qaqaa seems to have been the biggest and baddest of them, but there were lots more; how many did we know about before invading, and how many did we actually try to secure when we first got to them? Given that we didn’t bother securing al-Qaqaa, I expect the latter figure is a nice, round number. And what **Apos** said. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/427 "2004-10-30T20:19:08Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Seeing how much grief you’re taking over this, let me discuss the issue further. > > I think that the planner do deserve credit for what they did get right. The efforts are worthy of praise. It’s good that catastrophes that were prevented. Up to a point, I’d have to agree with you, **Simon**. But IMHO, the planners should have had the sense to see just how many catastrophes they might have to forestall, and just how few troops they had available to forestall them with. There comes a point at which it makes more sense just to not go in at all - especially when that prevents pretty much all the potential catastrophes in one fell swoop. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/428 "2004-10-30T20:26:08Z")
Hell, never mind keeping them out of the hands of insurgents and other enemies! How about just keeping them out of the hands of rowdy teenagers? Keeping them out of the hands of the feeble-minded, who might inadvisedly use them to harvest the flowers to strew in our path? Howzabout because we don’t want them in _anybody’s_ hands? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/429 "2004-10-30T20:32:00Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Up to a point, I’d have to agree with you, **Simon**. But IMHO, the planners should have had the sense to see just how many catastrophes they might have to forestall, and just how few troops they had available to forestall them with. There comes a point at which it makes more sense just to not go in at all - especially when that prevents pretty much all the potential catastrophes in one fell swoop. One may appreciate what has gone well seperately from the totality of the affair. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/430 "2004-10-30T20:36:23Z")
One might, I suppose. Much the same way one observes a turd studded with undigested corn kernals, and be reminded that you’re fond of corn-on-the-cob. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/431 "2004-10-30T20:40:18Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > One might, I suppose. Much the same way one observes a turd studded with undigested corn kernals, and be reminded that you’re fond of corn-on-the-cob. Or the way one may appreciate that even though your house has been burgled, at least the dog was not raped. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/432 "2004-10-30T23:02:13Z")
Am I the only person who, after reading the last few posts by **Sam Stone,** comes to he conclusion that **sam** will say anything that will get Bush re-elected? ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2004, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/433 "2004-10-30T23:40:27Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > And our plan for controlling these weapons when we invaded was…? Looting it ourselves? Isn’t it possible that Halliburton or even this administration wants a whole bunch of the stuff without the IAEA knowing about it? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/434 "2004-10-31T00:09:47Z")
As Josh Marshall points out, the Republican denials about this story are particularly bizarre given that it shouldn’t be in the least bit surprising that this happened. It was happening everywhere, to all sorts of sensitive sites post-invasion, especially nuke facilities. In fact, it seemed like many Republicans were open in admitting it… up until the point Kerry made it a campaign issue, after which it suddenly, magically, became unbelievable and unlikely again. Same with Tora Bora. We have the government and Bush people basically talking openly about how Osama was almost certainly there and that we miscalculated by letting him get away due to too few troops (there may have been, by some hyperbole, more reporters than US troops there) in 2002 and even 2003. Then Kerry points that out, and suddenly it’s all crazy talk. That crosses the line from intellectual dishonesty to a realm of near insanity. ---
**Author:** ![pantom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/34f0e0/32.png) [@pantom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pantom)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/435 "2004-10-31T02:02:13Z")
> [@SimonX](#): > > Or the way one may appreciate that even though your house has been burgled, at least the dog was not raped. Eeeewwww! Now I have to wash my eyes out with soap. Honestly. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/436 "2004-10-31T02:06:43Z")
> [@pantom](#): > > Eeeewwww! > Now I have to wash my eyes out with soap. Honestly. At least it makes me glad to know that my dog’s honor is still intact. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/437 "2004-10-31T21:27:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Iraq Fact of the Day (February 12, 2004) > > Every day Iraqis are taking more responsibility for improving their security. In Baghdad, a “tips hotline” accepts information on terrorists, weapons dealers and those working to stop the progress of the new Iraq. Recently, a hotline informant was responsible for the arrest of two individuals, Kareem Marwan and Mohammed Rafar, and theseizure of two SA-7 Strella missiles, 11 sticks of PE-4, **over two pounds of RDX explosives** , and three anti-tank missiles. Since the capture of Saddam Hussein, more Iraqis are providing valuable intelligence to Iraqi security forces and the Coalition to help defeat the enemies of freedom. > > _Source: Coalition Provisional Authority, Baghdad._ [Iraqis Take Responsibility for Their Own Security (Because We Sure the Hell Didn’t)](http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/02/20040212.html) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/438 "2004-10-31T21:37:37Z")
Well, gosh, why didn’t they say that before? Clearly, things are going just splendidly, freedom is on the lurch… ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2004, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/439 "2004-11-01T05:10:13Z")
**Two whole pounds!** Golly gee willikers, now I can sleep soundly at night, and don’t have to worry about the other 379.99 tons of explosives that are still rattling around loose out there… ---
**Author:** ![jshore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b5e925/32.png) [@jshore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jshore)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2004, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023/440 "2004-11-05T01:17:33Z")
Amidst the election news, [here](http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-explosives4nov04,1,5429574.story?coll=la-headlines-world) is an interesting story in today’s L.A. Times: > [@](#): > > **Soldiers Describe Looting of Explosives** > > In the weeks after the fall of Baghdad, Iraqi looters loaded powerful explosives into pickup trucks and drove the material away from the Al Qaqaa ammunition site, according to a group of U.S. Army reservists and National Guardsmen who said they witnessed the looting. > > The soldiers said about a dozen U.S. troops guarding the sprawling facility could not prevent the theft because they were outnumbered by looters. Soldiers with one unit — the 317th Support Center based in Wiesbaden, Germany — said they sent a message to commanders in Baghdad requesting help to secure the site but received no reply. > > The witnesses’ accounts of the looting, the first provided by U.S. soldiers, support claims that the American military failed to safeguard the munitions. Last month, the International Atomic Energy Agency — the U.N. nuclear watchdog — and the interim Iraqi government reported that about 380 tons of high-grade explosives had been taken from the Al Qaqaa facility after the fall of Baghdad on April 9, 2003. The explosives are powerful enough to detonate a nuclear weapon. > > During the last week, when revelations of the missing explosives became an issue in the presidential campaign, the Bush administration suggested that the munitions could have been carted off by Saddam Hussein’s forces before the war began. Pentagon officials later said that U.S. troops systematically destroyed hundreds of tons of explosives at Al Qaqaa after Baghdad fell. > > … 4 more years of lies and excuses. How fun! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=21) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/al-qaqaa-where-the-roadside-bombs-come-from/271023.md?page=23)