# Alabama Christians with a persecution complex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571 "2003-08-25T18:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/181 "2003-08-29T20:28:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **{Jon Stewart]Whaaaa?[/Jon Stewart]. How can the OT be “a vicious portrayal of God” if as you already said, it was dictated by Jesus Christ? Are you saying it’s JC’s version of “Mommy Dearest” (or “Daddy Dearest”)?** She said the TC were dictated by God, not the OT. Let’s keep the story straight. > [@](#): > > \*\*And the inconsistencies in the OT are not a matter of translation, but of such things as two creation stories and Moses being able to see God’s backside when God is supposed to be a spirit. \*\* She didn’t say translation she said interpretation. There’s a difference. If you’ve got a set of stories orally passed down, difference in interpretation as to the meaning of the story can influence how the story is told, much like the Gospels. Same basic stories, different emphasis, means different details. Rather than as histories, it’s quite possible that the creation stories, etc., were meant as parables. Jesus seemed fond of that method of teaching, no reason why God wouldn’t try to teach lessons the same way through his preists and prophets. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/182 "2003-08-29T20:52:38Z")
> [@](#): > > She said the TC were dictated by God, not the OT. Let’s keep the story straight. And where do we find the TC? (Hint: Not the NT) > [@](#): > > She didn’t say translation she said interpretation. There’s a difference. If you’ve got a set of stories orally passed down, difference in interpretation as to the meaning of the story can influence how the story is told, much like the Gospels. Same basic stories, different emphasis, means different details. As I read her post, she seemed to be saying that apparent incosistencies in the Bible stem only from subjective understanding of its meaning, that is, “interpretation.” My point was that the incosistencies I mentioned were in the text as objective discrpancies in the details. > [@](#): > > Rather than as histories, it’s quite possible that the creation stories, etc., were meant as parables. Jesus seemed fond of that method of teaching, no reason why God wouldn’t try to teach lessons the same way through his priests and prophets. No argument here (except that I would omit God and just call it the passing down of folk tales), but **Peace Lady** appears to be posting from the fundamentalist Christian POV. If this is so, then your point is irrelevant because fundies do not admit that any part of the OT is meant to be understood as anything other than literallly accurate history. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/183 "2003-08-29T21:49:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > **And where do we find the TC? (Hint: Not the NT)** Saying that the TC were dictated by God and saying the entire OT was dictated by God are two different things. For example, we know the Constitution was written by the Founding Fathers, but there are still a lot of myths and legends that aren’t true that go around about them and what happened before and after or even during. > [@](#): > > **As I read her post, she seemed to be saying that apparent incosistencies in the Bible stem only from subjective understanding of its meaning, that is, “interpretation.” My point was that the incosistencies I mentioned were in the text as objective discrpancies in the details.** I don’t think that’s what she meant, since it sounds like she condemns most of the OT as a pack of lies. I think she means that much of the OT was written by people with screwy interpretations of different events and laws and the whole thing sort of snowballed. Of course, then you have the task of figuring out which is which and we’re back to the whole, why should Christians care about the TC. But I think that’s what she meant. \*\* > [@](#): > > No argument here (except that I would omit God and just call it the passing down of folk tales), but **Peace Lady** appears to be posting from the fundamentalist Christian POV. If this is so, then your point is irrelevant because fundies do not admit that any part of the OT is meant to be understood as anything other than literallly accurate history. \*\* Agreed. I was just trying to argue from a theist standpoint, of which I am not actually a member. I’m also not so sure that **Peace Lady** is a fundamentalist since she thinks the OT is skewed. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/184 "2003-08-29T22:16:02Z")
You know, I was just citing Matthew 15 over in GD when it occurred to me it might apply here. In it, Christ talks about the Law, quoting Isaiah 29:13, “These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.”\* These people in Alabama who proudly proclaim their Christianity, and make a great deal of noise about how it’s under attack by Godless voices seem to me to overlook what Christ, Himself, said were the most important aspects of Law: loving God and ones neighbors. If they are such devout Christians, how could they have omitted the Commandment Christ gave us? Could it be that proclaiming one’s faith and dismissing those who don’t share it outweighs doing what that faith requires? I’m told non-Christians are sinners. Last time I checked, so are Christians. The Christ I worship never was one for hanging out with the respectable types. That’s one reason I thought He might accept me. I am a Christian. Around here, I make no secret of that. On the other hand, I would much rather my life reflected my faith than a piece of jewelry around my neck or a chunk of rock in the place where I work. I would not be comfortable in Moore’s courtroom, because I’d be worried it’d be no place for an odd duck like me. I also have reason to believe some very dear friends who are highly moral people who are not Christians would feel even less welcome. CJ ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/185 "2003-08-29T22:27:30Z")
And further to HOMEBREW’s elucidation of the Supreme Court’s use of the 10C – it’s also pretty much historical (meaning, the art has been there for a good long while), which can in certain cases get you _sort of_ a pass in the whole “no religion in gov’t” issue. If the U.S. Supreme Court were to truck a big ol’ monument of the 10C into the building _today_, that very likely would be just as unconstitutional as Moore’s actions were. Though if they were to do such a thing – which they wouldn’t – they’d probably be smart enough to try to pass it off as “art” or as having “historical import” and not be so stupid as to just say “Yep! It’s a religious display!” ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/186 "2003-08-30T00:30:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > **And further to HOMEBREW’s elucidation of the Supreme Court’s use of the 10C –** The Ninth Commandmant: Thou Shalt Not Bear False Witness. Therefore I must humbly point out that it was **MEBuckner** and **Sauron** who did the elucidating, not me. I think **Sauron** and **Aries** have [more Baptists](http://www.bjcpa.org/Pages/Views/2003/08.28.03jbwcommandments.html) and [other demoninational clergy](http://www.bjcpa.org/Pages/News/2002news/09.11.brief.html) on their side than on the other. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/187 "2003-08-30T01:19:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Peace Lady \* > \*\*Hello, > > This is mostly in reply to Aries28 and Sauron, > > No Christain bashing? Let’s look first at the title of this thread “Alabama Christains With A persecution Complex”. Next, let’s look at the 1st (or maybe 2nd) post - “Why don’t we give these fucking fundies a cross?”. 5th post - “troglodytes”, “primitive idiol worshipers”, “hayseeds” (southern bashing). 7th thread - “inbred idiots”. It goes on and on. You are seeing what you want to see, and not what the actual written word is. \*\* And _yet_ you’re able to make your posts here without anyone saying, “What the hell do you know, you’re just a Christian?” ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/188 "2003-08-30T01:39:08Z")
I don’t think **Peace Lady** is a true fundie. I think, she, like many Christians, is going with things she has always been taught and never thought to question. As I said earlier, a few years back I probably would have been down in Montgomery sitting outside the building myself talking about how bad it was Christians had no rights in this country. I, for one, would like to give her a chance to think her views through and evaluate them before everybody steps in to assume she is another **His4Ever** or a poster along those lines… She has been polite and well spoken so far. And thank you, **MEBuckner** for the info on the Supreme Court building. I was asked the question this very week about the Supreme Court building and I was ignorant of the things you pointed out. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/2bfe46/32.png) [@John\_Carter\_of\_Mars](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Carter_of_Mars)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/189 "2003-08-30T03:41:59Z")
Holy smurf shit! I’ve been away the better part of two weeks, and the judge’s doin’s is still front and center in the pit? Really, it was better down on the Gulf Coast. Around Perdido and Orange Beach everybody’s drinkin’ and chasin’ skirts (or shorts or swimsuits, as the case may be) and the judge is not so much the Hot Topic. Damn political opportunist, I say. He’s usin’ this as a springboard to the governorship, which he hopes to use as a springboard to the presidency. “There are a handful of posters here from AL and we all are highly educated and thoughtful people.” Well, maybe that should be _most_. I truly can’t find very many people here who agree with the judge, but then I ain’t a church mouse, and don’t travel in them circles. Anyways, relax, y’all. Tomorrow FOOTBALL starts. Auburn kicks off against Southern Cal at 5:00 pm, and the good(?) judge will be back on page 7 of your local paper, hopefully never to return. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/190 "2003-08-30T03:58:39Z")
Ah, the return and triumph of Alabama’s _True_ Faith. ---
**Author:** ![Punoqllads](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/d2c977/32.png) [@Punoqllads](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Punoqllads)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/191 "2003-08-30T04:23:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Peace Lady \* > A monument of the 10 commadments is not a false God. It was actually written by Moses, from what was dictated to him from Jesus Christ. > > Peace Lady Perhaps I have missed something. In the interest of fighting ignorance, could you please specify the chapter and verse which state that it was Jesus who dictated the Ten Commandments? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/192 "2003-08-30T04:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Peace Lady \* > \*\*Uhmmmmm, > > You don’t quite know your commandments. The commandment you speak of is: “Thou shalt not have any false God’s before me”. > A monument of the 10 commadments is not a false God. It was actually written by Moses, from what was dictated to him from Jesus Christ. > > Peace Lady \*\* **gobear** was, like me, raised Catholic, IIRC. I believe he mentioned being an altar boy. I think he knows the commandments. And according to MY Bible: > [@](#): > > I, the Lord, am your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. You shall not have other gods besides me. YOu shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything hiding in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth; you shall not bow down before them or worship them. -Exodus 20:2-5 ---
**Author:** ![widdershins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f0a364/32.png) [@widdershins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdershins)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/193 "2003-08-30T12:56:54Z")
Yeah with football season starting maybe we can resolve the conflict by replacing the monument with combined monument of Bear Bryant and Aubbie or Pat Dye. Maybe a full-scale diorama of Toomer’s Corner covered in toliet paper. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 30, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/194 "2003-08-30T22:20:19Z")
Roy Moore’s Ten Commandment monument vs. Da Bears. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [August 31, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/195 "2003-08-31T16:26:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Peace Lady \* > \*\* You must admit that the standard 10 commandments for Christians, which is what this debate is all about, are the good 'ole stone tablet 10 commandments. \*\* What on earth are you talking about? Protestants, Catholics, and Jews all have different lists of Ten Commandments, because the very idea of “the standard 10 commandments” as such appears nowhere in the Bible. The monument is not a Judeo-Christian monument, not even a Christian monument, but a Protestant monument, because it gives government sanction to a specific Protestant doctrine with no Biblical sanction. Even the wording of the monument doesn’t adhere to the ostensible source material which has been twisted into “the ten commandments,” so far as I can tell. The 9th/10th commandment is rendered just as “Thou shalt not covet.” ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/196 "2003-09-04T00:51:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Peace Lady \* > \*\*Thanks for correcting me on the word “false”, but the message is the same when you take ou that word. > Peace Lady \*\* Weeelll… technically, no. Saying “thou shalt have no false gods before me” implies there are no other gods at all. Saying “thou shalt have no _other gods_ before me” doesn’t. Remember, the Jews weren’t always monotheistic. At the time the commandments were first written, that particular one may have been more of a political attempt to scare some groups into falling into line with a particular point of view. Also, if I’m not mistaken, different religions group the commandments differently, which leaves even more room for interpretation. My problem with this whole event is that, for our country and our courts, the document that’s most important isn’t the 10 Commandments, but the 10 \*Amendments[i/] to the Constitution (the bill of rights, you know?) By his own actions, Roy Moore has sought to defy the 1st amendment, not to mention his oath of office (okay, I don’t know exactly what his oath was, but I suspect it included a promise to uphold the Constitution of the U.S.) He claimed he’d be a traitor if he removed the monument. I say he came close to being a traitor by refusing to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/197 "2003-09-04T02:09:08Z")
Ben: You do realize that the last commandment of the Decalogue is still #10 in all the lists, do you not? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/198 "2003-09-04T02:18:29Z")
Ben: Whoops! I misread your posting. My apologies. I see that you were splitting them the Catholic way with the coveting being divided between #9 & #10. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571.md?page=9)