# Alabama Christians with a persecution complex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571 "2003-08-25T18:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/41 "2003-08-26T23:24:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SunTzu2U \* > **Why is it that people have to attack Judaic images yet let others go unopposed. The Ten Commandment were Judaic Law not Christian Law as so many have failed to understand. The commandments are also the root law of all current law as well. Is it not a crime to lie, steal, commit adultery, kill?** Tell me about it. I’m still serving 5-10 for not properly honoring my father and my mother. I also once coveted my neighbor’s ass, but I was a juvenile so I got off with community service. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/42 "2003-08-26T23:32:23Z")
**SunTzu2U** , didja notice a couple of things though? One is that the Declaration of Independance _isn’t_ American Law! Nope, sorry. It’s a “fuck you” to King George III. Secondly, look at the phrasing they’re using. It’s “Creator”, “Nature’s God” and vague terms like that. **Not** “Jehovah.” ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [August 26, 2003, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/43 "2003-08-26T23:54:31Z")
Well Tuckerfan how about subsituting King George with The Supreme Court? Would that be legal? It seems that the only reason we have our independence and able to express it was the fact that we bore arms and threw off our oppressors. The Alabamians are just excercising their right as stated in the Declaration. Let me cite this then: Article the third [Amendment I] Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. Funny thing is that no one question my line of reason on the other possibly religious images associated with our government buildings. As far as not using Jehovah, that is just a name you have chosen. God by any other name is still God right? There is nothing vague in man’s Creator or Divine Providence. They both refer to God right? Do I believe in the Ten commandments? Yes, I think that if everyone would follow them the world would be a much better place. Do I worship them? NO and neither do the people who are trying to defend them either. If anyone thinks contrary to this then they are idiots themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/44 "2003-08-27T00:04:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by whatami \* > \*\*What a bunch of thugs they are. \*\* Hey, don’t go running down the **[Thuggee](http://groups.yahoo.com/group/newwesternthuggees/)** religion now! _Jaya **[Kali](http://www.realtantrasolutions.com/images/about_2.jpg)** Ma!_ ---
**Author:** ![Arcana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@Arcana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arcana)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/45 "2003-08-27T00:07:17Z")
As a Witch, I’d like to see a nude statue of The Goddess along with The Charge of the Goddess, and make the whole weight TEN TONS. Let’s see the Christians move THAT with prayer.😉 ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/46 "2003-08-27T00:07:42Z")
Um, no, adultery isn’t a crime. Nor is making graven images or working on the Sabbath. You can have all the religious monuments you like-on YOUR property. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/47 "2003-08-27T00:09:28Z")
Mola Ram, prepare to meet Kali. . in HELL! ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/48 "2003-08-27T00:11:50Z")
Adultery will get you killed though! And the Alabama State Courthouse is the Alabamians property not yours Guinastasia so let them keep their monuments on THEIR property right? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/49 "2003-08-27T00:21:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SunTzu2U \* > **Well Tuckerfan how about subsituting King George with The Supreme Court? Would that be legal?** Well, seeing as how the original signers are dead, I’m betting that no court of law in the US would recognize it. And even if you got a whole bunch of living folks to sign it, I’m sure the court’s reaction would be, “This is bullshit. Goodbye.” \*\* > [@](#): > > It seems that the only reason we have our independence and able to express it was the fact that we bore arms and threw off our oppressors.\*\* Right, because the British courts wouldn’t have recognized it as a valid legal document. \*\* > [@](#): > > The Alabamians are just excercising their right as stated in the Declaration.\*\* The protestors? Yup, they are. And we’re excercising ours by disagreeing with them. \*\* > [@](#): > > Let me cite this then: > > Article the third [Amendment I] > > Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.\*\* And ask any of the various militia groups what’s happened when they tried to pull something similar to what the Founding Father’s did. They shouldn’t be too hard to track down. Many of them are now in Federal prison. \*\* > [@](#): > > Funny thing is that no one question my line of reason on the other possibly religious images associated with our government buildings. \*\* You mean things like statues of Justice, which are symbols from a (essentially) dead religion that have assumed an iconic status deviod of religious meaning to a great number of folks? Or do you mean Navtivity scenes on state property? \*\* > [@](#): > > As far as not using Jehovah, that is just a name you have chosen. God by any other name is still God right?\*\* _Wrong._ "Jehovah refers to the particular diety worshipped by Judeo-Christians (Moslems call him “Allah.”) “Jehovah” does _not_ refer to a diety worshipped by Buddhists, Hindus, Taoists, or a zillion other religions. The beliefs specific to those religions vary widely and while they do have similarities to one another, a Buddhist is most likely _not_ going to feel at home in Pentacostal snake handling service, nor is a Pentocostal snake handler going to feel at home in a Buddhist service.\*\* > [@](#): > > There is nothing vague in man’s Creator or Divine Providence. They both refer to God right? \*\* They are vague, and they do **not** refer to God. “Man’s Creator”, who is that? Well, to a Buddhist it is one thing, to a Christian it is something else altogether. Hell, some religions don’t even _have_ a Creator! So to that person, “Man’s Creator” might simply be evolution. “Divine Providence” is a meaningless phrase to an atheist. \*\* > [@](#): > > Do I believe in the Ten commandments? Yes, I think that if everyone would follow them the world would be a much better place.\*\* Yeah, the world would be a better place if we all just left one another the fuck alone, but it ain’t gonna happen so long as there’s human beings mucking about the place. \*\* > [@](#): > > Do I worship them? NO and neither do the people who are trying to defend them either. If anyone thinks contrary to this then they are idiots themselves. \*\* Great. I’ll make a note of it, in case anyone ever asks me your opinion on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/50 "2003-08-27T00:27:21Z")
Yes, the courthouse is the property of everyone there, including those that aren’t christian. And the fact is, not everyone in your state wants them there. Even if those that don’t want them are in the minority (and I seriously doubt that), the minority has rights too. What is so hard to understand? ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/51 "2003-08-27T01:23:26Z")
Well well well Tucker it seems I’ve hit a nerve or two with you. Yes I must agree that the Federal Government has trampled alot of people’s rights in the name of justice. Take for instance the War between the States or otherwise known as the War of Northern Agression. A lot of people were killed because of the same mindset as you propose. It’s happened many times before in history. When a nation loses touch with its roots it eventually dies and is replaced with another. This is a factor of history and what I have found is history has a way of repeating itself over and over and over…you get the point. “You mean things like statues of Justice, which are symbols from a (essentially) dead religion that have assumed an iconic status deviod of religious meaning to a great number of folks?” Why don’t you attribute the same status to the Commandments monument? A symbol is never devoid of any meaning EVEN religious meaning. How long will Judeism have to be extinct until the Commandments will lose their “religious” meaning? So you are proposing that the Majority rules what is and isn’t religious? Now you are trampling the people in the Minority and I think these were the ones you were taking sides with right? As to the wording of the Declaration on God: How many Buddhist, Muslim, Hindus, Taoists do you think signed that document? Hmmmm? The signators of the Declaration came from a Judeaic Christian heritage. The generations which have come after them brought their religion here BECAUSE they would have the freedom to excercise it. As far as musicguy is concerned. Obviously living in the land of Fruits and Nuts he would not even begin to have an insight into the beliefs held by the average resident of Alabama. If you took a poll you would find that the people who want the monument removed ARE in the minority so going by Tuckerfan’s edict their views should not be represented. Obviously Tuckerfan does not believe in a moral code of conduct and disdanes anyone who does. I guess that goes with the territory. Tuckerfan, we cannot leave each other alone because for our society to function it requires our interaciton. The problem occurs when the people in the society decide to not follow such simple rules as stated in the commandments. Humans left to their own devices will ALWAYS get into trouble because of this. For society to function people must take responsibility for their actions and follow some simple yet effective rules or do you disagree with this as well? ---
**Author:** ![SunTzu2U](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5a626/32.png) [@SunTzu2U](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SunTzu2U)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/52 "2003-08-27T01:28:36Z")
Well well well Tucker it seems I’ve hit a nerve or two with you. Yes I must agree that the Federal Government has trampled alot of people’s rights in the name of justice. Take for instance the War between the States or otherwise known as the War of Northern Agression. A lot of people were killed because of the same mindset as you propose. It’s happened many times before in history. When a nation loses touch with its roots it eventually dies and is replaced with another. This is a factor of history and what I have found is history has a way of repeating itself over and over and over…you get the point. “You mean things like statues of Justice, which are symbols from a (essentially) dead religion that have assumed an iconic status deviod of religious meaning to a great number of folks?” Why don’t you attribute the same status to the Commandments monument? A symbol is never devoid of any meaning EVEN religious meaning. How long will Judeism have to be extinct until the Commandments will lose their “religious” meaning? So you are proposing that the Majority rules what is and isn’t religious? Now you are trampling the people in the Minority and I think these were the ones you were taking sides with right? As to the wording of the Declaration on God: How many Buddhist, Muslim, Hindus, Taoists do you think signed that document? Hmmmm? The signators of the Declaration came from a Judeaic Christian heritage. The generations which have come after them brought their religion here BECAUSE they would have the freedom to excercise it. As far as musicguy is concerned. Obviously living in the land of Fruits and Nuts he would not even begin to have an insight into the beliefs held by the average resident of Alabama. If you took a poll you would find that the people who want the monument removed ARE in the minority so going by Tuckerfan’s edict their views should not be represented. Obviously Tuckerfan does not believe in a moral code of conduct and disdanes anyone who does. I guess that goes with the territory. Tuckerfan, we cannot leave each other alone because for our society to function it requires our interaciton. The problem occurs when the people in the society decide to not follow such simple rules as stated in the commandments. Humans left to their own devices will ALWAYS get into trouble because of this. For society to function people must take responsibility for their actions and follow some simple yet effective rules or do you disagree with this as well? ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/53 "2003-08-27T01:48:36Z")
Okay, **SunTzu2U** , let’s take the gloves off here, shall we? First of all, the so-called “War of Northern Agression” (a phrase most often employed by Klansman, I might add) was more than you make it out to be, and certainly more than I care to get into here. (I _do_ recommend, however, that you do a board search, you’ll find tons of threads discussing the matter). Yeah, a helluva lot of people died in that, but it still beats the alternative (Ya know, slavery.) > [@](#): > > \*\*Why don’t you attribute the same status to the Commandments monument? A symbol is never devoid of any meaning EVEN religious meaning. How long will Judeism have to be extinct until the Commandments will lose their “religious” meaning? \*\* Dunno. If it ever dies out, we’ll start the clock. \*\* > [@](#): > > So you are proposing that the Majority rules what is and isn’t religious? Now you are trampling the people in the Minority and I think these were the ones you were taking sides with right?\*\* By what twisted logic are you able to infer that from anything I’ve said here? \*\* > [@](#): > > As to the wording of the Declaration on God: How many Buddhist, Muslim, Hindus, Taoists do you think signed that document? Hmmmm? \*\* Dunno, but I _do_ that the man who _wrote_ the document was an avid reader and had studied _many_ different religions. In fact, Thomas Jefferson had such trouble with many of the items in the New Testament, he _significantly_ rewrote it, and excised those portions of the books which troubled him. Also know that many of the Founding Father’s were Deists who hadn’t quite pinned down their beliefs in regards to the whole Judeo-Christian faith business.\*\* > [@](#): > > Obviously Tuckerfan does not believe in a moral code of conduct and disdanes anyone who does.\*\* Funny, I don’t think we’ve met, so you’ve no way of knowing that, do you?\*\* > [@](#): > > The problem occurs when the people in the society decide to not follow such simple rules as stated in the commandments.\*\* No, the problem arises because some asshat thinks that _his_ god has given him the authority to kill that poor bastard over there because he doesn’t worship the same fucking god. Ever heard of the Crusades?\*\* > [@](#): > > For society to function people must take responsibility for their actions and follow some simple yet effective rules or do you disagree with this as well?\*\* \*\*And when you can get everyone to agree to the same set of rules, call me. It’s _never_ going to happen. ---
**Author:** ![musicguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@musicguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/musicguy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/54 "2003-08-27T01:49:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SunTzu2U \* > \*\* > As far as musicguy is concerned. Obviously living in the land of Fruits and Nuts he would not even begin to have an insight into the beliefs held by the average resident of Alabama. If you took a poll you would find that the people who want the monument removed ARE in the minority so going by Tuckerfan’s edict their views should not be represented. > \*\* First off, asshole, you do understand that the “Fruits and Nuts” remark is a bigotted remark, right? Nice to see your true colors. Second, I haven’t seen one person on this board from Alabama that thought that the graven image, er, monument should stay. Granted, there is generally a higher standard of poster here (you being an exception) than is representative of the average Joe. But many of the posters from Alabama have claimed that most of the people they know are able to see that this is nothing more than political grandstanding from a judge that has his sights set on being Governor. Third, (again) laws are to protect the minority, not only the majority. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/55 "2003-08-27T02:02:32Z")
FYI, the Deists who were the Founding Fathers used the phrase “Nature’s God” as a specifically _non-Christian_ term for the Deity. It was another way of mentioning the “Great Architect” of Freemasonry. The use of this specific phrase is an intentional rebuke to Christianity, although the words are carefully chosen so that the Christians wouldn’t even know they were being rebuked. Jefferson was viciously attacked by the Christian fundies of his day, and they fulminated from their pulpits to whip up a frenzy of opprobrium against him. This is why Jefferson wrote “I have sworn on the altar of God eternal enmity against every form of tyranny over the mind of Man.” The tyranny he was referring to was that of the Christian preachers. ---
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/56 "2003-08-27T02:20:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*I think their cause is wrong, but they are peacefully protesting and engaging in peaceful civil disobedience. And I think it’s a good thing that we live in a country where people can engange in civil disobedience without having to worry about being tortured or killed by the government. It’s also a good thing that we live in a country where, if the government takes an action that people think is wrong, the people do choose to protest peacefully, instead of becoming violent. \*\* Whoa. Talk about setting my mind-set 90 degrees thataway. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Lilairen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lilairen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lilairen)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/57 "2003-08-27T02:42:26Z")
“[A]n amendment was proposed, by inserting the word “Jesus Christ,” so that it should read, “a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion;” the insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend, within the mantle of its protection, the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo, and Infidel of every denomination.” – Thomas Jefferson, 1821 (apparently in his autobiography from the cites I can find on Google) ---
**Author:** ![feistyALgal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@feistyALgal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feistyALgal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/58 "2003-08-27T03:00:58Z")
I’ll bet a bunch of those religious fanatics are bible thumpers by day and sexual deviants by night. And Justice Moore is a huge f’ing coward for sneaking the rock into the rotunda in the middle of the night as if he had something to hide. He and his rock need a big OUSTING. And wouldn’t it be wonderful if someone could dig up some scathing stuff on him? Stuff that would ruin his career. He’s such a big goob. Someone should sneak the rock out in the middle of the night and put a huge dildo in its place. ---
**Author:** ![feistyALgal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5e9695/32.png) [@feistyALgal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/feistyALgal)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/59 "2003-08-27T03:07:10Z")
I happen to live right here in Montgomery. I’m not from here (I’m from the DC area) — but have lived here for a few years. I thought we were going to have a hard time adjusting (because we have a very Jewish name)… but everyone here has been wonderful that we’ve met. The street I live on is very diversified. We’re not Christians. Hubby’s Jewish, I’m not any religion. I don’t believe in paying Retail to have a relationship with God. More like factory-direct. I think Justice Moore is an \*sshat. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/60 "2003-08-27T03:29:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Giraffe \* > \*\*I also once coveted my neighbor’s ass, but I was a juvenile so I got off with community service. \*\* I’m a breast man myself. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571.md?page=4)