# Alabama Christians with a persecution complex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571 "2003-08-25T18:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/101 "2003-08-27T18:15:08Z")
What I don’t get is why the Christians even care about the Ten Commandments so much anyway. They’re _Jewish_, not Christian. They’re a part of the 316 commandments from the Torah, none of which, as I understand, Christians are obligated to follow. Or maybe Christians have changed their mind on following the Torah and I missed the news? Will they start keeping kosher now? ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/102 "2003-08-27T18:48:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Aries28 \* > \*\*And just HOW do you know so much about the September issue of Hustler, love? > > Something you want to confess? 😉 \*\* [sub]Oh, shit.[/sub] I meant “Guideposts”! Really! There was this pictoria … um, _article_ on Juggs Naughty, the … no, no! **Judge not**! That was it! I don’t know where “Juggs Naughty” came from! Ignore that! It was “Judge not, lest ye be judged”! That was it! Yes! Really! Whew! That was close. Now, as long as I don’t hit “Submit Reply”, I’m golden. [sub]Oh, **shit.** [/sub] ---
**Author:** ![irae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f0a364/32.png) [@irae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irae)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/103 "2003-08-27T19:24:44Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SunTzu2U \* > I am a student of history Tuckerfan and I know well the history of the crusades. Do you know about the muslim invasion of Spain, the Byzantine empire and most of Europe? It happened about 300 years BEFORE the crusades so I guess the “Christians” were just getting even. Number the Eleventh: Thou shalt get even. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/104 "2003-08-27T19:35:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SunTzu2U \* > I am a student of history Tuckerfan As someone who actually _is_ a student of history, and by that I mean “What actually happened” and not “Fundie porn some preacher told me to believe”, I find this statement to be scary as hell. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/105 "2003-08-27T19:59:28Z")
KYLA – > [@](#): > > What I don’t get is why the Christians even care about the Ten Commandments so much anyway. They’re Jewish, not Christian. They’re a part of the 316 commandments from the Torah, none of which, as I understand, Christians are obligated to follow. Or maybe Christians have changed their mind on following the Torah and I missed the news? Will they start keeping kosher now? Surely you’re not serious. Whether read literally, figuratively, or mythically, the acknowledged holy book of Christianity is the Bible – both Old Testament and New Testament. (Which Bible? Depends on who you ask.) The Ten Commandments: figure prominently in the OT; form in part the basis of Judaism (which is in turn the basis of Christianity); include the chief commandment of both religions (and Islam as well) that there is only one God; and also set forth some handy rules for living, including the part about not coveting the ass of your neighbor. Frankly, I can’t believe you are seriously unaware the of the fact that the Old Testament (including three versions of the 10C) is as much a part of our holy book as it is a part of yours. For a great discussion of the 10C and the Judge Roy Bean Moore debacle, see (as usual for religious issues) [religioustolerance.org](http://religioustolerance.org), a link to which is right [here](http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_10co.htm) . . . Which you will see makes the important point, thus far overlooked in this discussion, that only five or so of the 10C actually deal with the law, as opposed to morality. Compare: “Don’t Kill People” with “Don’t Take My Name In Vain.” So how do the pro-10C in a flipping government building people justify the inclusion of clearly non-legal maxims such as “make no graven images”? And if your answer is that you think the government has any business imposing _morality_, ask yourself if you’d feel the same way if it was imposing morality you didn’t happen to agree with. People only think government meddling in religion or morality is a great idea when they believe the meddling will be in support of, and in complete agreement with, their own personal beliefs. But if you give the government that much power when it agrees with you, how do you propose to take that power back when it no longer does? _That’s_ the short-sightedness of supporting Moore and what he stands for. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/106 "2003-08-27T20:17:34Z")
> [@](#): > > People only think government meddling in religion or morality is a great idea when they believe the meddling will be in support of, and in complete agreement with, their own personal beliefs. But if you give the government that much power when it agrees with you, how do you propose to take that power back when it no longer does? That’s the short-sightedness of supporting Moore and what he stands for. Amen to that! It’s why these battles against any such in-your-face form of religion-brandishing are worth fighting. I’m not going to get worked up about a Christmas creche in the town square, for example; but something like this cannot be let slide. For everyone’s good, including the protesters’ if they only could see it. ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/107 "2003-08-27T20:36:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > **Or we could put a 30’ x 50’ banner showing the featured female in the September issue of 'Hustler.'** See, now we’re back to coveting our neighbor’s ass. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/108 "2003-08-27T20:56:30Z")
> [@](#): > > Frankly, I can’t believe you are seriously unaware the of the fact that the Old Testament (including three versions of the 10C) is as much a part of our holy book as it is a part of yours. No, and I wasn’t suggesting that. But it is my understanding that Christians believe that Jesus ended the previous covenant with God and created a new one, one that doesn’t require following the laws set down in the Torah. The Ten Commandments are a part of those laws. Why should Christians embrace those ten laws so emphatically and, OTOH, say that they can eat shellfish? It strikes me as picking and choosing. ---
**Author:** ![Sauron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce7236/32.png) [@Sauron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sauron)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/109 "2003-08-27T21:13:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kyla \* > \*\*No, and I wasn’t suggesting that. But it is my understanding that Christians believe that Jesus ended the previous covenant with God and created a new one, one that doesn’t require following the laws set down in the Torah. The Ten Commandments are a part of those laws. Why should Christians embrace those ten laws so emphatically and, OTOH, say that they can eat shellfish? It strikes me as picking and choosing. \*\* Jesus said that the two most important laws (guidelines, rules, commandments, whatever) were “love the Lord your God with all your heart and love your neighbor as yourself.” (Paraphrasing a bit there.) One can argue that these two commandments would, in various forms, meet the criteria put forth in all of the Ten Commandments (for example, loving your neighbor would preclude killing him/her, would prevent you from bearing false witness, etc.). So viewed in that light, what Jesus said is a simplification – and, at the same time, validation – of the 10C. Therefore, they’re still an important part of a Christian’s life. The shellfish thing is covered later in the New Testament, when Peter (I think) is shown a table in a vision covered in various types of food. He refuses to eat any of it, saying that it’s “unclean.” God rebukes him by saying, in effect, “Hey, homeboy, don’t be dissin’ my cookin’. I made it, so you can eat it.” ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/110 "2003-08-27T21:18:55Z")
KYLA – > [@](#): > > Why should Christians embrace those ten laws so emphatically and, OTOH, say that they can eat shellfish? It strikes me as picking and choosing. You see no difference between “You shall have no other gods but Me” and “You shall not use the same bowls for meat and milk, nay, not even if you wash them first”? I think Christians still adhere to the 10C (or at least admit that they ought to) because the 10C set down important, fundamental, universal religious and moral principles of enduring import, and Christians feel that nothing in Jesus’s new covenant indicates that they should not continue to follow them. Jesus’s teachings did not serve to overrule the OT entire, as if you just throw out the old playbook without regard to whether the rules in it make sense or not. If that had been the case, then the Christian Bible would be the NT alone, and it’s not. So I think it is more accurate to say that Christians do not believe they are required to follow _all_ the laws of the Torah. And while that may in fact leave us open to a charge of “picking and choosing,” it’s an open question whether it’s worse to “pick and choose” to follow those religious laws that make moral and logical sense, or to strictly follow a number of laws that don’t make much sense at all. In other words, and speaking only for myself, I can understand why God desires me not to kill people; I’m more at a loss to imagine why He cares if I eat shellfish. Surely you can see the logic in jettisoning rules that no longer serve any purpose, while keeping those that still do? ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/111 "2003-08-27T21:38:29Z")
> [@](#): > > So I think it is more accurate to say that Christians do not believe they are required to follow all the laws of the Torah. And while that may in fact leave us open to a charge of “picking and choosing,” it’s an open question whether it’s worse to “pick and choose” to follow those religious laws that make moral and logical sense, or to strictly follow a number of laws that don’t make much sense at all. Okay, that makes sense to me. I didn’t mean to offend, I was genuinely confused by this. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/112 "2003-08-27T21:51:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jodi \* > \*\*KYLA – > > You see no difference between “You shall have no other gods but Me” and “You shall not use the same bowls for meat and milk, nay, not even if you wash them first”? > > I think Christians still adhere to the 10C (or at least admit that they ought to) because the 10C set down important, fundamental, universal religious and moral principles of enduring import, …\*\* Not all of them. What’s so universal, or particularly moral, about the prohibition on graven images, other gods and the Sabbath? > [@](#): > > **And while that may in fact leave us open to a charge of “picking and choosing,” it’s an open question whether it’s worse to “pick and choose” to follow those religious laws that make moral and logical sense, or to strictly follow a number of laws that don’t make much sense at all.** At least you acknowledge it’s arbitrary. > [@](#): > > \*\* > In other words, and speaking only for myself, I can understand why God desires me not to kill people; I’m more at a loss to imagine why He cares if I eat shellfish. Surely you can see the logic in jettisoning rules that no longer serve any purpose, while keeping those that still do? \*\* How do you _know_ which serve God’s purpose and which don’t? You may be at a loss as to why God cares if you eat shellfish, but the rule’s there. Who are you to question it? Maybe he has a reason that you just don’t know yet. I’m at a loss as to why he would care who I sleep with. So instead of trying to justify why I disregard one rule but keep others, I just use my own morality and disregard the whole thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/113 "2003-08-27T22:46:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SunTzu2U \* > **And to just set the record strait with Tuckerfan. Contrary to your view I’m not a Klansman.** Tell me another one, granpa, like the time the 600 ft Lassie appeared to you and told you to build the dog shelter! \*\* > [@](#): > > The thought of enslavement is most reprehensible and against Christianity.\*\* And yet numerous Christians held slaves. \*\* > [@](#): > > The Romans enslaved Christians (and whoever else they could conquer) and then fed them to the lions. Is that persecution?\*\* And when was the last time you saw a Roman crucifying a Christian? \*\* > [@](#): > > The cross was a Roman invention. Was this invention intended to persecute?\*\* Yeah, was it specifically _designed_ for Christians? Nope. \*\* > [@](#): > > It took almost 400 years for the Romans to accept Christianity and then it was only instituted as a device to maintain the empire control over its populace.\*\* And your point is? \*\* > [@](#): > > The Civil war was fought over the right of a state to secede from the federal nation not over slavery. Slavery might have been an issue that the north could use to galvanise support but it was not THE reason for the war.\*\* _Riiiiiiiiiiight._ The North just sat around saying, “Gee, we’d really like to go to war with someone, but there’s nobody handy. Hey! Let’s piss the South off, they’ll secede and then we’ll declare war on them!” \*\* > [@](#): > > I am a student of history Tuckerfan\*\* Obviously a piss poor one since so many people have handed your ass to you in this thread over some of the things you’ve said. (Care to continue your claim that the Founding Fathers were specifically speaking about Jehovah in the Declaration of Independance?) \*\* > [@](#): > > Do you know about the muslim invasion of Spain, the Byzantine empire and most of Europe? It happened about 300 years BEFORE the crusades so I guess the “Christians” were just getting even.\*\* Oh, so that’s okay, then, I take it? :rolleyes: Sure took them a hell of a long time to get around to doing something about it, didn’t it? 300 fucking years. \*\* > [@](#): > > As a Christian, it is against the law to take someone’s life regardless of their beliefs.\*\* Yeah, it’s too bad a good number of Christians don’t follow that advice. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/114 "2003-08-27T23:10:12Z")
You didn’t offend me, KYLA, and I hope I didn’t offend you. 🙂 HOMEBREW – > [@](#): > > What’s so universal, or particularly moral, about the prohibition on graven images, other gods and the Sabbath? Well, “universal” in the sense of applying in the universe of those who accept some degree of Biblical authority at all, which apparently doesn’t include you. As to why it is particularly moral to do one thing or another – if you think I’m getting in _that_ argument with you, you’re nuts. I said, “And while that may in fact leave us open to a charge of ‘picking and choosing,’ it’s an open question whether it’s worse to “pick and choose” to follow those religious laws that make moral and logical sense, or to strictly follow a number of laws that don’t make much sense at all.” To which you reply: > [@](#): > > At least you acknowledge it’s arbitrary. But I didn’t, did I? “Following those laws that make moral and logical sense” is hardly an arbitrary action, unless you’re operating under a different definition of the word “arbitrary” than the one I’m familiar with. > [@](#): > > How do you know which serve God’s purpose and which don’t? Basically, I ask Him. And people I respect whom I think might know. And I use the brains He gave me. It ain’t that hard. There are many Christians who believe their faith requires blind obedience without regard to their own understanding or common sense. I am not one of them. And unexamined life, and all that. To paraphrase Galileo, I don’t believe the God who gave me a brain would expect me to refrain from using it. > [@](#): > > You may be at a loss as to why God cares if you eat shellfish, but the rule’s there. Who are you to question it? I’m me. Who am I _not_ to question it? I am not a Jew, so the rule is “not there” for me anyway. Who are _you_ to question it? Your nonbelief wins you a pass, but mine does not? I don’t hold to the tenets of a faith that is not my own, any more than you do. > [@](#): > > I’m at a loss as to why he would care who I sleep with. So instead of trying to justify why I disregard one rule but keep others, I just use my own morality and disregard the whole thing. Who are _you_ to decide what is moral? Who are _you_ to make a reasoned decision to “disregard the whole thing”? Which, of course, you don’t do anyway. Presumably, your personal morality includes following those rules that are useful and make sense, just as mine does. I just happen to believe my personal morality comes from a higher power. And at the end of the day, who are _you_ to question that? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/115 "2003-08-27T23:19:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SunTzu2U \* > \*\*Adultery will get you killed though! > > And the Alabama State Courthouse is the Alabamians property not yours Guinastasia so let them keep their monuments on THEIR property right? \*\* WTF? I didn’t know adultery was a capital crime. :rolleyes: No, it’s not Roy Moore’s property-it’s taxpayer property. Government property. It’s PUBLIC property, you drooling imbecile. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/116 "2003-08-27T23:20:54Z")
> [@](#): > > The Civil war was fought over the right of a state to secede from the federal nation not over slavery. Slavery might have been an issue that the north could use to galvanise support but it was not THE reason for the war. And here, I thought you pretended to be a student of history. Your odd claim is directly contradicted by the fact the the President and Vice-President of the Confederacy each enumerated slavery as the point of the rebellion and that the right to maintain slavery (that was not even under attack by the Northern states for the existing states) was explicitly declared in the declarations of seccession in four of the seceding states and mentioned in several others’ shorter statements. [Some primary source documents in which several of the seceding states discussed their motivations for secession.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3668493#post3668493) ---
**Author:** ![Giraffe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/giraffe/32/129_2.png) [@Giraffe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Giraffe)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/117 "2003-08-27T23:22:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sauron \* > \*\*God rebukes him by saying, in effect, “Hey, homeboy, don’t be dissin’ my cookin’. I made it, so you can eat it.” \*\* If this doesn’t constitute Biblical support for homosexuality, I don’t know what does. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/118 "2003-08-27T23:30:15Z")
Did anybody else here the tape of one of the protestors yelling “PUT IT BAAACK! PUT IT BAAAACK! GET YOUR HANDS OFF OUR GOD!?” Just wanted to point out the level of reasonable discourse going on around this issue right now. I really hope Judge Moore never gets back on the bench. IMHO the guy has no business being involved in law. I also hope he never gets elected to any other office, since I can’t help but think this is all intended to push him into the spotlight for a congressional seat or something. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/119 "2003-08-28T00:55:11Z")
> [@](#): > > Did anybody else here the tape of one of the protestors yelling “PUT IT BAAACK! PUT IT BAAAACK! GET YOUR HANDS OFF OUR GOD!?” Like I said in the other thread, they protestors are breaking the Commandments by their defense of the statue as an idol. One of the protestors said to NBC News, “It’s as if the governemtn were evicting God from the courthouse.” Watching this, I thought, how odd that these fundaloonies have so little faith in the might of their God that they think He can be evicted by the removal of a statue. Morons. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/120 "2003-08-28T01:08:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by photopat \* > **Did anybody else here the tape of one of the protestors yelling "PUT IT BAAACK! PUT IT BAAAACK! GET YOUR HANDS OFF OUR GOD!?"** Saw it reported on [Foxnews.com](http://Foxnews.com), of all places. I thought it had to be a Simpson’s quote or something. That answers whoever said the thing itsn’t being treated like a holy relic or something. Get your hands off our God. Unbelievable. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571.md?page=7)