# Alabama Christians with a persecution complex **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 25, 2003, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571 "2003-08-25T18:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/141 "2003-08-28T14:59:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biggirl \* > \*\*That video is disturbing. In a funny way. > > That guy was reeaaaallllyyy mad. I kept expecting him to say “Put the motherfucker back! Put the goddamn thing back!” \*\* It was almost funny. I thought the camerman was gonna get it! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/142 "2003-08-28T18:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > I’ve seen 400 people at a fantasy/sci-fi convention in Birmingham. Based on this gathering, would you suggest that all of Alabama’s residents be forced to wear chainmail and Spock ears? Yes, absolutely. Spock ears for all Alabamans now! I’ll move to Alabama and ride that platform all the way to the governor’s mansion! ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/143 "2003-08-28T19:13:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Peace Lady \* > Please, get your facts straight before posting them. All right. Here are some facts. Please let me know if I make a mistake. _Fact #1:_ It is the established federal law of the United States that the government shall make no endorsement of any religion. _Fact #2:_ Roy Moore’s placement of a monument to the Ten Commandments (by itself\*) inside a federal courthouse, is a violation of this law. (\* = “By itself” meaning it’s not part of a greater, non-religious display) _Fact #3:_ When he was ordered to remove the monument, Roy Moore refused to comply. This is contempt of court and is a violation of the law. _Fact #4:_ To comply with the court order to remove the monument, and end the violation of the federal law regarding government endorsement of religion, workers moved the monument away from public view. _Fact #5:_ Alabamans (and anyone else) who object to items #3 and #4 are either ignorant of the law, or are implying that it’s acceptable to violate the law, or both. _Fact #6:_ The religious rights of Roy Moore and his supporters have not been violated – as far as I know, no one is prohibiting any of them from going to a _non-government_ location and performing whatever religious activities they wish to perform. Now, **Peace Lady,** you appear to be agreeing with the protesters mentioned in item #5. Assuming that this is correct, could you please tell us why this is acceptable, given that it’s shown to be either ignorant or condoning illegal acts? Thanks. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/144 "2003-08-28T19:54:31Z")
Only one teeny mistake, **rjung** -it was the State Judicial Building, not the federal courthouse. It doesn’t make a substantive difference in the legal agrument, though. Moore was told to remove it by a federal court order and openly defied it, appalling behavior for a member of the judiciary. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/145 "2003-08-28T19:59:59Z")
HOMEBREW – > [@](#): > > But it is arbitrary because people decide differently which make sense and which don’t. That doesn’t make it arbitrary. Arbitrary means “determined by chance, whim, or impulse, and not be necesssity, reason, or principle.” 100 people can make reasoned decisions and come up with conclusions that are inconsistent. That doesn’t mean that any one of them was arbitrary in his or her decision-making process. People reach different decisions on lots of things, but the absence of unanimity in decisions does not make those decisions arbitrary. > [@](#): > > Those you consider “moral and logical” just so happen to align with your personal morality. Well . . . duh. 😉 How could I consider a rule “moral” if it didn’t align with my personal morality? The rules _you_ think are moral and logical just happen to align with _your_ morality adn sense of logic, too. Obviously. > [@](#): > > No. I’m not following any rules. I do what I believe is right not because of some rule written in a book. I don’t lie to people because I don’t like them to lie to me. I don’t steal for the same reason. Just because my personal morality happens to coincide with some of the rules in the book doesn’t mean I’m “following the rules”. I hate to break it to you, but you follow rules all the time. You follow rules every time you stop for a red light. You follow rules every time you pay your taxes. You follow rules every time you apologize for bumping into someone on the street; stand in line instead of charging to the head of it; show up for work on time; dress appropriately to an occasion; refrain from farting in public; refrain from stabbing your annoying boss. Your _motivation_ for following the rules is irrelevant, though as to that, I don’t recall where _I_ ever said that the reason I do anything is “because it’s written in some book.” I would imagine you do, in fact, follow at least some of the 10 Commandments, because they make sense. What is your basis for assuming I don’t follow some of them for the exact same reason? > [@](#): > > I believe you, and other moral, ethical people of any religion, would be moral and ethical regardless of your religion. I don’t believe you would revert to plundering just because you lost your faith in God - despite you being a lawyer and all. Gee, thanks. And I in turn believe you, and other moral, ethical people of no religion, would be moral and ethical even if you believed in God. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/146 "2003-08-28T20:39:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pravnik \* > Only one teeny mistake, **rjung** -it was the State Judicial Building, not the federal courthouse. Thanks for the correction. All I really remember was that the monument was on government grounds, not in Moore’s front yard. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/147 "2003-08-28T20:59:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* You follow rules every time you … stand in line instead of charging to the head of it; show up for work on time; dress appropriately to an occasion; refrain from farting in public; …follow at least some of the 10 Commandments\*\* Okay, now you’re just making unfounded accusations! 😉 > [@](#): > > What is your basis for assuming I don’t follow some of them for the exact same reason? Seriously, though, I think that’s the _only_ reason you do those things. The rulebook is what is irrelevant; not the motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/148 "2003-08-28T21:52:43Z")
This thread should not pass without recognizing the wonderful irony (or bizarre gall, take your pick) inherent in this statement from the 8/28 edition of USA Today: “‘It shows they’re cowardly,’ protest organizer Patrick Mahoney said of the officials who ordered the monument moved.” From a front page story on the controversy: “Roy Moore had the monument installed in the middle of the night on July 31, 2001, shortly after he was elected chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court.” Let’s see. Judge Moore sneaks a huge religious symbol into the courthouse in the dead of night. After complaints, protests, counter-protests and appropriate court action, the monument is removed in full view of the public, including a group of clamoring protesters. I think we can conclude exactly who was being cowardly here. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2003, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/149 "2003-08-28T22:19:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by musicguy \* > \*\*Just a friendly reminder… > > It’s pretty frowned upon around here to accuse someone of trolling. \*\* Right, we don’t need another stormfront blowing through here and fouling things up again. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/150 "2003-08-29T00:25:03Z")
I cannot for the life of me get that video to load. Or does it just take a really long time? ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/151 "2003-08-29T00:51:05Z")
Guan, you have hight speed Internet? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/152 "2003-08-29T00:58:14Z")
Nope, unfortunately not. ---
**Author:** ![Incubus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c68b51/32.png) [@Incubus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Incubus)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/153 "2003-08-29T01:12:20Z")
Sigh. Things like this make me sad-its immature behavior that seems to rile up a lot of polarized views on religion. I think it really stirs up hatred on both sides. Those who already have a zealous devotion to their worship will become more zealous, and those opposed to such worship will be increasing vocal and violent. I worry it will only escalate into some form of persecution one way or another. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/154 "2003-08-29T07:38:14Z")
I don’t think anyone here is opposed to “such worship.” I think what people are opposed to is underhanded (and simultaneously overt) violation of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![SisterCoyote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/958977/32.png) [@SisterCoyote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SisterCoyote)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/155 "2003-08-29T07:43:44Z")
I don’t think anyone here is opposed to “such worship.” I think what people are opposed to is underhanded (and simultaneously overt) violation of the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/156 "2003-08-29T11:56:33Z")
Why wasn’t there a great outcry _for_ this monument before the judge and his friends had it erected? Did the Christians feel persecuted _before_ July 2001? Were the decisions of the court any less valid before the monument was placed near the entrance? Has this judge done anything _for_ Alabamians other than cause discord and suspicion? If you don’t like the First Amendment, then work to get it repealed. Or go and found a “Christians only” nation somewhere else and start from scratch. _This space is already taken._ ---
**Author:** ![widdershins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f0a364/32.png) [@widdershins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/widdershins)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/157 "2003-08-29T13:23:40Z")
Unfortunately, **Zoe** , in a way there was an indirect outcry for such a monument. When Moore was a circuit court judge in Etowah County he first garnered state and later national attention with a similar fight to display a hand-carved wooden monument of the 10 Commandments on the wall of his courtrom. The case was thrown out on appeal by the state Supreme Court in 1998 on a procedural technicality. Moore used the controversy, the ensuing media attention, and support from conservative religious organizations to run for the office of Chief Justice of the Alabama Supreme Court. It was basically his entire campaign platform, promising to bring a copy of the 10C to the state judical building if elected, and certainly the thing he was most known for. He won the election 54 to 46 percent versus Alabama Appeals Court Judge Sharon Yates. Sure he’s done other things for our fair state, he has stimulated the economy by luring in lots of reporters and their satellite trucks from the different news organizations. Those people have to buy food and they have to rent hotel rooms to sleep in. They have to buy gas for their trucks. He has quite possibly jumpstarted a future acting career for the Angry “Put It Back” Guy with all of the exposure the man has gotten. He has encouraged tourism and camping among his out of state supporters, many of whom took time off from work to come camp out on the grounds of our lovely state judical building. Why he has even encouraged the arts in Alabama with his court fight, if it weren’t for the 10C battle we wouldn’t have gotten a return engagement and command performance by that noted orator, ambassador, occasional presidential candidate, erstwhile TV host, and past president of Alabama A&M University - Alan Keyes with his riveting one-man show: _Hey Camera Guys! Look at me! Look at me!_ Of course Moore and his supporters like the First Amendment, they like it so much they don’t want to share it with anyone else. ---
**Author:** ![Peace\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Peace\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peace_Lady)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/158 "2003-08-29T13:54:56Z")
Hello, This is mostly in reply to Aries28 and Sauron, No Christain bashing? Let’s look first at the title of this thread “Alabama Christains With A persecution Complex”. Next, let’s look at the 1st (or maybe 2nd) post - “Why don’t we give these fucking fundies a cross?”. 5th post - “troglodytes”, “primitive idiol worshipers”, “hayseeds” (southern bashing). 7th thread - “inbred idiots”. It goes on and on. You are seeing what you want to see, and not what the actual written word is. People, if this ain’t bashing, then God bless ya. And, oh, about the 200 people in my congrgation? There was an anonymous poll taken, and the reults were announced at the next service. And for however said that I should have said “I believe…”, I think I covered that with my very last statement of, “this is just my humble opinion”. Please read to the end before commenting. One last thing, why is it that the 10 Commandments are inscribed on a wall of the U.S. Supreme Court, with no fuss whatsoever??? Sounds a bit strange to me. And, yes, I fully realize that this is a flaming forum, which I also covered with a remark that perhaps I should just read around here without commenting much. There is too much controversy, beyond my control, in mine and most people’s lives like it is. Why bring more on myself? Just speaking for myself. Peace Lady ---
**Author:** ![Peace\_Lady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9adbd/32.png) [@Peace\_Lady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peace_Lady)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/159 "2003-08-29T14:08:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by gobear \* > \*\* > Moreover, I find it hilarious that these hayseeds who are so zealous to keep the stone image in the courthouse are actually violating the Ten Commandments (specifically the injunction against worshipping graven images). \*\* Uhmmmmm, You don’t quite know your commandments. The commandment you speak of is: “Thou shalt not have any false God’s before me”. A monument of the 10 commadments is not a false God. It was actually written by Moses, from what was dictated to him from Jesus Christ. Peace Lady ---
**Author:** ![Aries28](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Aries28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aries28)\ **Post date:** [August 29, 2003, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571/160 "2003-08-29T14:18:22Z")
Thank you for your reply, **Peace Lady**. I get where you are coming from in general but not in regards to this particular board. The thread title to me has truth in it. There are SOME Alabama Christians who feel they are being persecuted because of this whole 10C deal. I can’t see why they feel this way if they understand our Constitution and why religion should be separate from government. There are many people using this for their own personal gain and it has absolutely zilch to do with their beliefs. It’s a chance to be on TV or tell their friends about how they stood and helped try to keep God in Alabama. It’s ridiculous. They are turning a monument into God and that is idolatry from my point of view. To me, fundies are different than Christians. Fundies are extremists who go to almost any length to shove their religion down other’s throats. They don’t do it in Christian love. They do it with viatrol and hate. They drive more people away from Christ than they ever bring to Him. I am a Christian. I am not a fundie. Yes, there are people here who have a negative opinion of the South. No arguement from me there. However, I find that I, myself, am for the most part shown respect around here even after it is known I am from Alabama and a Christian. I have had some heated debates with a few people about my beliefts but they have always been polite and civil as far as I recall. People actually announced in your service that out of the 2000 members only 7 disagreed with Moore? Wow. I would be highly offended if my church did that. I do agree with you that sometimes expressing a religious opinion around here might get you a few comments about how silly you are being, how ridiculous your beliefs are, etc. but I choose to stay here because as I said, almost no one has ever been anything but polite to me and I choose to show an example of how I feel Christ would want me to live my life in front of others. BTW, I fail miserably on a daily basis but I would like to think that people here respect my beliefs and opinions even if they don’t hold the same ones or agree with me. Oh, and in case no one has mentioned it to you…welcome to the boards. We look forward to hearing your thoughts. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-christians-with-a-persecution-complex/197571.md?page=9)