# Alabama declares frozen embryos to be children **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883 "2024-02-21T14:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/1 "2024-02-21T14:11:35Z")
I’d like to discuss the implication of the Alabama court ruling that frozen embryos are children. I’m also interested if Dopers know whether this is appealable. Some implications, off the top of my head: - IVF is dead in the state - Someone could be prosecuted for homicide or murder for mishandling or discarding frozen embryos - This ruling provides a roadmap for other states to follow suit - If it goes to SCOTUS and they agree, this could lead to a nationwide ban on IVF Here’s a gift link from the NYT about this ruling: > **[Alabama Rules Frozen Embryos Are Children, Raising Questions About Fertility...](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/02/20/health/ivf-alabama-abortion.html?unlocked_article_code=1.XE0.eSBc.G6Dkrf38rSBz&smid=url-share)** > > The ruling raises worrisome legal issues for would-be parents far beyond Alabama whose hopes for children may depend on in vitro fertilization. Here’s an interesting quote from a concurring opinion: > “Even before birth, all human beings have the image of God, and their lives cannot be destroyed without effacing his glory,” Chief Justice Tom Parker wrote in a concurring opinion, citing scripture. Not really any pretense about any wall of separation there. I will be following along, but not able to post much during the day. I’d like to avoid a standard-issue abortion debate if possible. I’m most interested in the frozen embryo implications, although granting full personhood to embryos is certainly a large step towards making abortion illegal nationwide. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/2 "2024-02-21T14:16:27Z")
You’d have to believe physicians and prospective clients in the state would think twice about participating in IVF given this ruling. In other developments, Alabama has [a new official state song](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7EJ0swEI3Rc). ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/3 "2024-02-21T14:16:57Z")
Delicious, delicious children: > **[Alabama Supreme Court Rules That Frozen Burritos Are Children](https://www.theonion.com/alabama-supreme-court-rules-that-frozen-burritos-are-ch-1851271293?rev=1708456791503&fbclid=IwAR1pRSRAH0Bt9lWMR8sgl2qf6Yficmtj9ySXrJNCP7VLDCPtHzjq4ISp7XU)** > > MONTGOMERY, AL—In a case aimed at preserving what plaintiffs described as the sanctity of reheatable Tex-Mex fare, Alabama’s Supreme Court issued a ruling Tuesday in which it asserted that frozen burritos are children. “With this decision, the court... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/4 "2024-02-21T14:24:55Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > IVF is dead in the state I think that is absolutely true. But, IVF is very expensive so I suspect couples who want to use that service will have little trouble traveling to the next state over to do the same thing. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/5 "2024-02-21T15:25:39Z")
Interestingly, the couples that filed the original suit seeking damages for wrongful death had their embryos frozen for IVF purposes. Their actions may bring about the end of IVF procedures in the State. ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/6 "2024-02-21T15:29:26Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I think that is absolutely true. But, IVF is very expensive so I suspect couples who want to use that service will have little trouble traveling to the next state over to do the same thing. While IVF is expensive, health insurance does cover it in many plans. We would have never been able to pay for it out of pocket. I don’t know for sure, but I would highly doubt that our health insurance company would have paid for us to have services out of state/network. ---
**Author:** ![purplehorseshoe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/purplehorseshoe/32/2996_2.png) [@purplehorseshoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/purplehorseshoe)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/7 "2024-02-21T15:47:59Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Delicious, delicious children: Very well-done satire, produced very quickly. Nice job, Onion! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/8 "2024-02-21T16:08:31Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > the Alabama court ruling that frozen embryos are children Here’s what the ruling specifically says (from a [link](https://publicportal-api.alappeals.gov/courts/68f021c4-6a44-4735-9a76-5360b2e8af13/cms/case/343D203A-B13D-463A-8176-C46E3AE4F695/docketentrydocuments/E3D95592-3CBE-4384-AFA6-063D4595AA1D) given in the OP’s linked article): > [@](#): > > This Court has long held that unborn children are “children” for purposes of Alabama’s Wrongful Death of a Minor Act, § 6-5-391, Ala. Code 1975, a statute that allows parents of a deceased child to recover punitive damages for their child’s death. The central question presented in these consolidated appeals, which involve the death of embryos kept in a cryogenic nursery, is whether the Act contains an unwritten exception to that rule for extrauterine children – that is, unborn children who are located outside of a biological uterus at the time they are killed. Under existing black-letter law, the answer to that question is no: the Wrongful Death of a Minor Act applies to all unborn children, regardless of their location. This seems to me at least to have the virtue of consistency: if it’s illegal to kill an embryo that’s in a woman’s uterus, why shouldn’t it be illegal to kill an embryo that is outside the uterus? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/9 "2024-02-21T16:13:14Z")
Sure. But it highlights a problem. If a couple has a frozen embryo must it be maintained forever? Even if the couple breaks up and don’t want it. Or, they both die. Even of old age. By this ruling all embryos MUST be maintained forever. Even if no one is paying to maintain them. Anything else is murder. Which is why all IVF treatment will leave that state. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/10 "2024-02-21T16:16:27Z")
I’m curious what other child welfare laws apply to frozen embryos. Once they’ve been frozen for five years, must they be enrolled in kindergarten? If they don’t learn at the same pace as other children, does the Individuals With Disabilities Education Act kick in? If they live in crowded conditions–say, ten thousand children to a room–is this considered neglect or abuse? What if their living quarters are kept at subfreezing temperatures–is this abuse? ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/11 "2024-02-21T16:29:55Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Which is why all IVF treatment will leave that state. Unless there’s some kind of grace period or grandfather clause, it’s too late for that for any IVF operation in the state that already has an inventory of frozen ~~embryos~~ unborn children 🙄 What are they going to do? Pack up the embryo-cicles with the rest of their stuff when they move? They can’t leave them there, and they can’t dispose of them. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/12 "2024-02-21T16:34:35Z")
I may be completely wrong but my impression is that IVF requires multiple medical appointments with the sort of timing that would make it difficult to travel too far - it’s one thing to travel 200 miles for a single appointment or even two appointments on consecutive days and quite another to have 7 appointments inside of two weeks and maybe need two or three or five rounds before it is successful. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/13 "2024-02-21T16:38:03Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m also interested if Dopers know whether this is appealable. The court ruled on state law grounds, so I don’t see a way for the US Supreme Court to overturn this. The “fix,” if there is going to be one, should come from the Alabama Legislature. ---
**Author:** ![Tatterdemalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@Tatterdemalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tatterdemalion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/14 "2024-02-21T16:38:07Z")
On the bright side, with the abortion ban there’ll be plenty of kids available for adoption. `` if needed. ---
**Author:** ![Falchion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a88e57/32.png) [@Falchion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falchion)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/15 "2024-02-21T16:38:51Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’m also interested if Dopers know whether this is appealable. I don’t see how. The question is the proper interpretation of a particular term in a state statute. It doesn’t involve any obvious federal issues. I’d even suggest that the interpretation of one term in one statute doesn’t _necessarily_ implicate the definition of the same term in a different statute. The term “person” has a particularly varied set of meanings under various statutes. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/16 "2024-02-21T16:39:56Z")
When you freeze PEOPLE, they die. Therefore, FROZEN embryos cannot be PEOPLE, at least not yet. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/17 "2024-02-21T16:44:07Z")
I don’t think that logic holds. I mean, people breathe air and have names and embryos don’t, so they’re obviously not constrained by such petty comparisons. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/18 "2024-02-21T16:55:24Z")
And what does that do to wills: « I leave my estate to be divided equally between my children. » Sorry, Johnny and Jane, you only get 1/12 shares each, because your dad has 10 frozen children that get the other 10 shares. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/19 "2024-02-21T16:56:20Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > When you freeze PEOPLE, they die. Therefore, FROZEN embryos cannot be PEOPLE, at least not yet. Walt Disney will want to have a word with you, after he’s woken up and cured. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/20 "2024-02-21T16:58:10Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Walt Disney will want to have a word with you, after he’s woken up and cured. I await this monumental event with baited breath. LOL [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883.md?page=2)