# Alabama declares frozen embryos to be children **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2024, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883 "2024-02-21T14:11:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/21 "2024-02-21T17:01:58Z")
So I’m guessing that the plainly Christian tone, like the quote in the OP, doesn’t offer any toehold to appeal on, like, separation of church and state grounds, right? ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/22 "2024-02-21T17:13:49Z")
So by these justices’ logic: these embryos are people, with souls. It’s better then, in their opinion, to keep these souls locked in a frozen container, an icy prison, indefinitely, rather than to let them go reside with their Creator in heaven. Forever trapped in a broken and sinful world, a situation from which they cannot escape, unable to ever have the hope of being united with God in the hereafter. Now before any of you argue the existence of God and heaven and whatnot, I’m just pointing out the cruelty and inhumanity of this based on the _actual theology_ of the justices who made this decision. From _their_ Christian perspective, this shouldn’t be seen as “pro-life,” it’s pure evil. From a Christian perspective, life doesn’t end at death, it begins (as in life with God in heaven). ETA and FTR: while I’m a Christian, I vehemently disagree with these clowns. These embryos are not people, not souls, etc. They are clusters of cells. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/23 "2024-02-21T17:22:22Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I’d like to avoid a standard-issue abortion debate if possible. Can we have a debate about how much Alabama f— sucks? ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/24 "2024-02-21T17:24:23Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I await this monumental event with baited breath Nitpick: “bated”. Somebody had to. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Lendervedder](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happy_lendervedder/32/8488_2.png) [@Happy\_Lendervedder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Lendervedder)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/25 "2024-02-21T17:25:19Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > Nitpick: “bated”. > > Somebody had to. Maybe she had worms for lunch. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/26 "2024-02-21T17:25:43Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Once they’ve been frozen for five years, must they be enrolled in kindergarten? You think Alabama wants their embryos educated? If they get an education, they’ll vote democrat! ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/27 "2024-02-21T17:26:14Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > Nitpick: “bated”. > > Somebody had to. Well, it COULD be “baited” under the proper circumstances. Suppose I go fishing with live bait like, say, minnows. After 3 hours, I’m starving, so I swallow a few minnows. I would then have “baited breath”. 😈 ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/28 "2024-02-21T17:27:46Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > When you freeze PEOPLE, they die. Therefore, FROZEN embryos cannot be PEOPLE, at least not yet. > [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > So by these justices’ logic: these embryos are people, with souls. Technically, the ruling isn’t about whether they’re “people” but whether they’re “children,” in a specific sense. And that’s a term that can have different meanings in different contexts (including, I assume, different legal contexts), like “children” as minors (“There are two adults and three **children** living in this house”) vs “children” as offspring (“Mrs. Smith has three **children** and five grandchildren”). ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/29 "2024-02-21T17:30:05Z")
> [@Happy\_Lendervedder](#): > > So by these justices’ logic: these embryos are people, with souls. It’s better then, in their opinion, to keep these souls locked in a frozen container, an icy prison, indefinitely, rather than to let them go reside with their Creator in heaven. Forever trapped in a broken and sinful world, a situation from which they cannot escape, unable to ever have the hope of being united with God in the hereafter. Indeed, so by this logic, isn’t it every embryo’s right to be born? Should _somebody_ be forced to carry them to term? Give them their chance at life? I’m not saying that’s desirable, possible or fair, but their logic seems to imply that it should be done. And will this open up another opportunity for miscarriages be charged as crimes? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/30 "2024-02-21T17:57:35Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > Indeed, so by this logic, isn’t it every embryo’s right to be born? One would think. I have trouble seeing how one can reconcile a belief that life begins at conception (i.e. that embryos are considered full human beings with all the rights that entails) with being okay with frozen embryos being disposed of _or_ kept indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/31 "2024-02-21T17:59:01Z")
> [@Toxgoddess](#): > > Indeed, so by this logic, isn’t it every embryo’s right to be born? [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/fUspLVStPbk/maxresdefault.jpg "Every Sperm is Sacred - Monty Python's The Meaning of Life") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUspLVStPbk) ---
**Author:** ![mjmartin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3d9bf3/32.png) [@mjmartin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mjmartin)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/32 "2024-02-21T18:29:13Z")
ICF clinics are already pausing procedures based on the ruling. I don’t see how they could possibly operate. I wouldn’t be surprised if that was the intention. > **[Fearing prosecution, UAB pauses in vitro fertilization after Alabama embryo...](https://www.al.com/news/2024/02/uab-pauses-in-vitro-fertilization-due-to-fear-of-prosecution-officials-say.html)** > > A statement from the university said they are 'saddened' for patients who are trying to have babies I can only imagine how much of a gut punch it must be for a couple to have waited for just the right moment for an IVF procedure, after months or years of testing, insurance approvals, etc. and then be informed that the state won’t allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Dung\_Beetle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dung_beetle/32/7945_2.png) [@Dung\_Beetle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dung_Beetle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/33 "2024-02-21T18:36:44Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Can we have a debate about how much Alabama f— sucks? You’ll get no argument from me. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/34 "2024-02-21T18:40:26Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > What are they going to do? Pack up the embryo-cicles with the rest of their stuff when they move? They can’t leave them there, and they can’t dispose of them. ISTM that this is a great opportunity for all those “pro-life” organizations and individuals to put their money where their mouth is by ponying up to adopt those “children”. You think that individual organism is such a precious human life with full personhood, great, you can care for it from now on. After all, I always see you protesting outside abortion clinics holding up signs saying “I WILL ADOPT YOUR BABY” and similar. Well, this is your big chance. More realistically, this looks like a good opportunity for any business with a spare chest freezer. Advertise your services as a “PERMANENT LOVING HOME FOR THE UNBORN”, make sure you’ve got surge protection and a backup generator to keep the freezer cold, and you can charge “housing” and “childcare” fees indefinitely. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/35 "2024-02-21T18:47:36Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > > [@Toxgoddess](#): > > > > Nitpick: “bated”. > > > > Somebody had to. > > Well, it COULD be “baited” under the proper circumstances. Suppose I go fishing with live bait like, say, minnows. After 3 hours, I’m starving, so I swallow a few minnows. I would then have “baited breath” 😈 No, you’d just have fishy breath. If you stuck your head under water and tried to catch fish with your mouth, _then_ you’d have baited breath. 😁 ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/36 "2024-02-21T18:56:30Z")
I heard this story on NPR this morning. I still have a lump in my throat (esophageal pregnancy?). So – thinking about The Great State of Texas … If I loan my chimerical sister in Foley, AL the money for IVF … have I committed a crime? What about giving her a ride to the clinic? If she takes an Uber, is _that_ driver a co-conspirator? Crossing state lines – leaving AL for an IVF clinic in another state – does that make it Federal, if only in the (plank in their eyes) eyes of Alabama’s legislature or judiciary? What about the landlords who rent space to the IVF clinics? Vendors? Utilities who provide lights, power, phones, internet, gas, etc.? Landscapers? Any trades who do work on these buildings or the facilities? If a power failure triggers a blackout that backup generators cannot compensate for, does the utility then become an accomplice to a mass homicide? Can these frozen embryos be declared dependents on my income taxes? If I have a rack of these test tubes in a cooler in my car, can I avail myself of _any_ HOV (High Occupancy Vehicle) lane in the Bible Belt? If another car then collides with mine, and the collision is determined to be the other driver’s fault, how many counts of homicide will they be charged with? I’m not done, but I will pause at this point 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/37 "2024-02-21T18:59:24Z")
I’m wondering if this ruling has any implications around birth control methods that act or sometimes act by preventing implantation - such as oral contraceptives and IUD’s. I fully expect the Alabama legislature to use this ruling to pass some new laws around birth control. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/38 "2024-02-21T19:09:34Z")
Alright. One more thing – trying to respect that this is GD. Anybody else getting a faint [**"Boys From Brazil**"](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boys_from_Brazil_(film)) vibe? ---
**Author:** ![Toxgoddess](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Toxgoddess](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Toxgoddess)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/39 "2024-02-21T19:29:31Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I’m wondering if this ruling has any implications around birth control methods that act or sometimes act by preventing implantation - such as oral contraceptives and IUD’s. I suspect so. There’s been rumbling that birth control is the next thing the American Taliban is coming after, regardless of the fact that nobody in America wants birth control outlawed. I hope I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883/40 "2024-02-21T20:21:06Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Sure. But it highlights a problem. > > If a couple has a frozen embryo must it be maintained forever? Even if the couple breaks up and don’t want it. Or, they both die. Even of old age. By this ruling all embryos MUST be maintained forever. Even if no one is paying to maintain them. Anything else is murder. > > Which is why all IVF treatment will leave that state. In addition: Isn’t IVF sometimes done to select for parents with likely genetic damage, to select embryos that are viable? And even if not done for that reason, aren’t there occasionally embryos that are clearly not viable? Do they also have to be maintained frozen for all of eternity? Would the facility that goes out of business in 30 years, or 300, make its then-owners liable for mass murder? > [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](#): > > > [@Jasmine](#): > > > > Well, it COULD be “baited” under the proper circumstances. Suppose I go fishing with live bait like, say, minnows. After 3 hours, I’m starving, so I swallow a few minnows. I would then have “baited breath” 😈 > > No, you’d just have fishy breath. If you stuck your head under water and tried to catch fish with your mouth, _then_ you’d have baited breath. 😁 What if you ate some tuna and then used your fishy breath to try to catch a cat? No underwater breathing needed. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-declares-frozen-embryos-to-be-children/997883.md?page=3)