# Alabama drags education back to pre-1861 days **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 21, 2024, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145 "2024-03-21T14:46:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/21 "2024-03-22T11:51:09Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > Has the NCAA ever took a principled stand? “NCAA” … … “principled” … … … … I’m drawing a blank. 😳 ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/22 "2024-03-22T12:13:37Z")
Same state that declared frozen embryos to be children, though that came from their idiot supreme court, not their idiot governor. That pretty much clinches Alabama as “dumbest state in the union” despite stiff competition from Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Texas, and a few other hotbeds of intellectual enlightenment. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/23 "2024-03-22T12:24:10Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The problem is when a teacher says “White people benefitted from the Jim Crow system” oe “slavery was really bad for slaves and many white people grew rich off the system”. some white people today interpret that as “making white people feel guilty”. I wonder how minimalist that could get. Like, imagine they framed things by saying, “hey, some people — none of _you,_ of course — were slaves, and that was really bad for them. And some people — again, none of you — liberated those slaves; none of you are to be commended for that, because none of you did that. And some people — by which, again, I mean _none of you_ — owned those slaves; none of you are to be condemned for that, because none of you did that either.” Could they teach literally everything in such a curriculum, so long as they showily preface each point? (Could they swing it with a single carefully-worded catch-all sentence on Day One?) ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/24 "2024-03-22T14:31:50Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The problem is when a teacher says “White people benefitted from the Jim Crow system” oe “slavery was really bad for slaves and many white people grew rich off the system”. some white people today interpret that as “making white people feel guilty”. I suspect that, in a place like Alabama, it’s a matter of family honor for many people. It’s not just “white people…”; it’s “your grandparents…” or “your ancestors…” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/25 "2024-03-22T17:31:34Z")
I grew up in Alabama. That may happen, but I honestly don’t think its required. Its enough to think everything that ever happened was really about you, and you are always the main character. So if ypu odentofy strongly as white, then any story about a white person and anon-white person, you see the white person as you. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/26 "2024-03-22T19:06:26Z")
Seriously though, this should NOT be a surprise. I’ve said this in other, not Pit threads, but fixing the systemic issues in many states is HARD and EXPENSIVE. Fix educational funding (if it’s even a priority)? Money. Fix low incomes, decreasing jobs, lack of mobility, crumbling infrastructure, and on and on and on - money money money. It used to be a politicians job to get elected by trying to address one or more of the above, and often fail and shift the blame. Modern, MAGA republicans have heaved a massive sight of RELIEF because they DON’T need to do any of that. As long as they pass some piece of legislation that hurts people their constituents hate (a huge mass of differing groups) they get a pass on any of the real business of government. And, for a politician, passing legislation is fundamentally free (okay, it takes away from their grifting, seeking sinecures, ghostwriting books, but it doesn’t require an investment of state money or favors). And if it eventually gets overturned, then it becomes a new pride point to campaign on: “Look, I got THEM punished, but the deep state / Democrats / Jews / Muslims / et al used the corrupt courts to stop it! Keep voting me in and I’ll keep fighting for YOU to defeat the THEM.” They are laughing at how much easier it’s become, no need for results when all you have to do is point the hate. (Back to Pit mode) Fuck those heartless evil monsters, and I pray we survive this and they end up in the dustbin of history, mentioned in the same breath as fuckers like McCarthy and the red scare. And that more importantly, their descendants spend generations refuting them, disavowing them, and spending the accumulated wealth on causes that they would hate. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/27 "2024-03-22T19:12:22Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > Seriously though, this should NOT be a surprise. It is for me. Look, I get that people are racist but be a closet racist. It’s like my neighbor that flies the Confederate battle flag to celebrate Juneteenth. How is anyone today an open and proud racist? > [@ParallelLines](#): > > Modern, MAGA republicans have heaved a massive sight of RELIEF because they DON’T need to do any of that. Then what is the excuse for the politicians in blue Colorado? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/28 "2024-03-22T19:24:20Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > Seriously though, this should NOT be a surprise. > > It is for me. Look, I get that people are racist but be a closet racist. It’s like my neighbor that flies the Confederate battle flag to celebrate Juneteenth. How is anyone today an open and proud racist? Maybe “diversity, equity and inclusion programs” and “the teaching of ‘divisive concepts’” don’t have the same meaning and connotations for everyone that they do for you? I can imagine being non-racist but supporting a ban like the one described in the OP, if my only experience with a DEI program was one that was poorly implemented, or if I had gotten all my knowledge of them from biased sources. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/29 "2024-03-22T19:33:34Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I can imagine being non-racist but supporting a ban like the one described in the OP, if my only experience with a DEI program was one that was poorly implemented, or if I had gotten all my knowledge of them from biased sources. Sure. But this is coming from the wing that want to ban teaching Critical Race Theory and have no idea what CRT means. (Note for DrDeth: CRT is the abbreviation of Critical Race Theory) So I suspect the Alatards have no clue what DEI programs are except it has the evil triumvirate of diversity, equity and inclusion in the name. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/30 "2024-03-22T19:41:35Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > Then what is the excuse for the politicians in blue Colorado? IMHO, and speaking as a Colorado resident of roughly 30 years, Colorado isn’t precisely blue even though the voting looks that way. It’s that over said period, the area has remained purple, with a lot of the increasing population being blue in the more populate areas. The red areas (see Boebert) remain blood red. BUT, the urban red population leans a LOT more towards Reagan/Bush era Republicans - low taxes, strong defense (see all the military here), balanced budgets, etc. So they see the craziness of modern MAGA and feel very uncomfortable siding up to the Russians, exploding budgets, and other artifacts of the Trump era. So the state has gotten _more_ blue, but it’s more that the Red has moved so far right that it’s left a lot of the old guard staying out of the voting or for sane moderate Democrats. Does that make sense? Meanwhile, the primaries, especially in solid Red/Rural districts, are MAGA fests, which depending on how nutty the candidate is (see Boebert _again_) may eventually tire out even those more accepting audiences. Lastly, racism is a kneejerk reaction to many MAGA fans. But, fundamentally, Colorado is so damn whitebread (ESPECIALLY outside the more urban areas) that racism isn’t quite “real” the way it is to Alabama. It’s hard to maintain the strong us/them divide when your community may not see a single person of color other than as a field worker. It’s the Religious Right that holds the most sway in many areas of Colorado, and they don’t play quite the same game, because they want donations and support regardless of your color, although even there, a creeping strain of White Christian Nationalism is growing. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/31 "2024-03-22T19:55:35Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The problem is when a teacher says “White people benefitted from the Jim Crow system” oe “slavery was really bad for slaves and many white people grew rich off the system”. some white people today interpret that as “making white people feel guilty”. Okay, I can see that, but you know there are people pushing the idea that white people should feel guilty today for things like slavery 160 years ago. None of my ancestors owned slaves in America- the closest thing is when my Great Grandfather- right off the boat- was recruited into the Union Army- which mean he helped liberate slaves in a way. Mind you on my Mothers side we likely had serfs back in the Old Country. So, I feel no personal guilt for American slavery. It was a dark time for America, no doubt, but not exceptional- many nations- Brazil for example- had their own slavery problems. > [@wolfpup](#): > > That pretty much clinches Alabama as “dumbest state in the union” despite stiff competition from Mississippi, Georgia, Florida, Texas, and a few other hotbeds of intellectual enlightenment. There’s a couple Youtube’s about worst states in America- worst education, most crime, most obesity, highest smoking rates, unemployment, taxes, all sorts of stuff- and they are almost all in the Deep South. The States that scream the loudest about 'welfare" are all on welfare. > [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > But this is coming from the wing that want to ban teaching Critical Race Theory and have no idea what CRT means. I am not the only SDMBer who has complained about acronyms. And CRT is highly debated and controversial, and not just by bigots. Mind you, AFAIK, no elementary curriculum actually teaches it, likely not until college- and where it would be a good place to discuss it. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > BUT, the urban red population leans a LOT more towards Reagan/Bush era Republicans - low taxes, strong defense (see all the military here), balanced budgets, etc. The GOP has never really been in favor of a balanced budget- sine that would be economically bad. What they want is to borrow and sped on their projects (military, etc) not the Dems projects. So the GOp borrows and spends, then when the Dems have control, the GOP makes that an election issue. > [@ParallelLines](#): > > although even there, a creeping strain of White Christian Nationalism is growing. The issue with White Christian Nationalism is that they aren’t really followers of Christ. Jesus taught love- not hate. Tolerance- not bigotry. Christians In Name Only. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/32 "2024-03-22T20:03:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > BUT, the urban red population leans a LOT more towards Reagan/Bush era Republicans - low taxes, strong defense (see all the military here), balanced budgets, etc. > > The GOP has never really been in favor of a balanced budget- sine that would be economically bad. What they want is to borrow and sped on their projects (military, etc) not the Dems projects. So the GOp borrows and spends, then when the Dems have control, the GOP makes that an election issue. > > > [@ParallelLines](#): > > > > although even there, a creeping strain of White Christian Nationalism is growing. > > The issue with White Christian Nationalism is that they aren’t really followers of Christ. Jesus taught love- not hate. Tolerance- not bigotry. > > Christians In Name Only. Regarding a balanced budget, while I’d largely agree that the previous Republican (as opposed to MAGA) politicians used it to hammer Democrats after creating the problems themselves, there are and were plenty of their followers who _believed_ it was a good idea and were/are sincere that it’s a good idea. Minor distinction, but I was specifically talking about the voters. On the second point, I mostly grant that any MegaChurch is about supporting itself, it’s personal cult of personality second, and anything having to do with the Christian Bible or Jesus somewhere in the non-burnable trash bin. The point was, until comparatively recently, following the first and second points made them comparatively less racist. As the congregations have become increasingly political/MAGA aligned, and the US vs THEM become ever more blatantly described as Good vs Evil, that the Christian Nationalism has become an expected refrain in order to continue to grow the church and cult of personality. Which becomes a self-reinforcing trend. After all, a huge appeal of such churches is the sense of belonging. And once that strain becomes dominant… well, Colorado has already had religious “Warriors” willing to do mass violence in the name of their version of God. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/33 "2024-03-22T20:13:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Okay, I can see that, but you know there are people pushing the idea that white people should feel guilty today for things like slavery 160 years ago. Ive nevee honestly seen that. And you mwntion your ancestors didnt own slaves, as if that were relevant. If mine did, does that mean I should feel guilt? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/34 "2024-03-22T20:24:40Z")
nevermind ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2024, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/35 "2024-03-22T21:02:03Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Okay, I can see that, but you know there are people pushing the idea that white people should feel guilty today for things like slavery 160 years ago. Who?… ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/36 "2024-03-23T00:12:29Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > you know there are people pushing the idea that white people should feel guilty today for things like slavery 160 years ago Yeah, that’s really not true. There are people saying that the country must still confront the issues that can be traced back to slavery (like persistent poverty and outsized incarceration rates among Black Americans), but nobody is arguing that people should feel guilty about the enslavement. Identifying a problem and calling for solutions is not blaming anybody. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/37 "2024-03-23T00:32:53Z")
> [@ParallelLines](#): > > It’s that over said period, the area has remained purple, with a lot of the increasing population being blue in the more populate areas Except we have Democrats in the top 5 government offices and almost Democratic super-majorities in the legislature so no excuse we can’t have pro-education laws. ---
**Author:** ![ParallelLines](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/parallellines/32/3575_2.png) [@ParallelLines](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ParallelLines)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/38 "2024-03-23T00:50:55Z")
Talking about it context of the thread, as not to hijack it away from Alabama education - it’s right back to the point I mentioned earlier. Money. [TABOR](https://leg.colorado.gov/agencies/legislative-council-staff/tabor) and the like means that the government allocating additional funds to better supply education is a hard row to hoe. I see new measures on each ballot to better fund schools, and often they get voted out. Which isn’t surprising - I did say that we’re far more purple than the national results show. The Blue areas are very strong on social issues, pretty strong on environmental issues, but pretty conservative on MONEY and TAX issues. The Red areas are more liberal (by MAGA standards) but remain very conservative on any financial issues. So I’m sure that there would be some enthusiasm for a pro-education agenda, but it’s never going to get much traction in the current financial setup. And, back to the OP - as far as Alabama MAGA is concerned, they’re “fixing” education. They’re saving money and cutting out “indoctrination” by DOING NOTHING. They don’t have to spend money, or raise taxes, and their (MAGA) constituents are dancing in the street, even as they take no action on a host of other ills. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/39 "2024-03-23T06:17:13Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > Yeah, that’s really not true. > **[White guilt](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_guilt)** > > White guilt is a belief that white people bear a collective responsibility for the harm which has resulted from historical or current racist treatment of people belonging to other racial groups, as for example in the context of the Atlantic slave trade, European colonialism, and the genocide of indigenous peoples.\[citation needed\] > In certain regions of the Western world, it can be called white settler guilt, white colonial guilt, and other variations, which refer to the guilt more pointedly in r... This is getting into a hijack I think. So, no more. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2024, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145/40 "2024-03-23T13:20:26Z")
From your cite: > [@](#): > > Commentator [Sunny Hundal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunny_Hundal), writing for _[The Guardian](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Guardian)_ , stated it is “reductionist” to assign political opinions to a collective guilt such as “white guilt” and few [people on the left](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-wing_politics) actually hold the views being ascribed to them by the conservative writers who expound on the concept of “white guilt” and its implications. Hundal concludes: “Not much annoys me more than the stereotype that to be liberal is to be full of guilt. To be socially liberal, in my view, is to be more mindful of _compassion_ and _empathy_ for others…to label that simply as guilt is just…insulting.” Seems spot on to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-drags-education-back-to-pre-1861-days/999145.md?page=3)