# Alabama retries failed execution with untried method (nitrogen)
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [January 24, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572 "2024-01-24T01:40:59Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 6
### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/101 "2024-01-25T03:13:43Z")
Have they ever considered dropping a huge safe from a height onto the condemned prisoner? Might lighten the mood.
---
### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/102 "2024-01-25T03:16:19Z")
Yeah good luck with that. I’m sure the employees can wear appropriate PPE and the courts ultimately won’t give a shit assuming an employee will file a complaint.
---
### Author:  [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/103 "2024-01-25T03:19:05Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> How difficult is it to manufacture pure N2?
Also trivial. You can buy off-the-shelf nitrogen generators for a few thousand dollars. But seriously, there is absolutely no obstacle at all to just getting a tank of nitrogen. Even if somehow every single gas supplier in the country said they would never sell nitrogen to a prison address or charge account, any employee could just go get a tank of it anonymously.
---
### Author:  [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/104 "2024-01-25T03:23:06Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#):
>
> How difficult is it to manufacture pure N2? Why couldn’t the state make it themselves if necessary?
About $2500 on Amazon for 99.9% pure.
[Nitrogen Generator](https://www.amazon.com/MXBAOHENG-99-999-Purity-Nitrogen-Generator/dp/B0792PLC31)
---
### Author:  [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/105 "2024-01-25T03:28:35Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#):
>
> There are masks, and there are masks.
>
> A lot of masks used in a medical setting are not intended to completely isolate the patient from the surrounding atmosphere. Even a non-rebreather mask is not perfect. A more basic mask - the sort that simply uses a tube (to the oxygen tank) and an elastic strap around the head - will really not do the job. A CPAP-style would likely suffice, if properly fitted. Even more effective would be something like a firefighter wears, that is intended to prevent inhalation of smoke etc.
>
> I have very little faith in prison officials choosing the correct mask type, or in using it correctly.
The slightest amount of positive pressure on the nitrogen side would ensure no entry of fresh air an absolute seal would not be necessary.
---
### Author:  [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/106 "2024-01-25T03:36:36Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#):
>
> There are masks, and there are masks.
Any industry that has a potential for exposure to toxic gasses will have lockers with masks intended to be donned by untrained personnel. I once worked a contract at a paper mill where I had to meet with a safety officer to ‘fit test’ one of those masks and I received a 5 minute mini course on how to properly put one on.
---
### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/107 "2024-01-25T13:17:07Z")
> [@scudsucker](#):
>
> I’ve voluntarily inhaled NO2 at a variety of parties.
>
> It is sold as a safe legal drug, and sure, it is indeed legal in most places.
>
> It is not safe, for a number of reasons, including the intoxicated can injure themselves. Ideally it would be sold in balloons, because the alternative would be the users basically freezing their mouth and throat due to the extreme cold gas.
>
> It is also a deleriant hallucinogen. Delerium is not fun. It is like a fever dream. Horrid experience,
>
> I’ve had my share. Would not recommend.
This post is muddying the waters in a couple of ways.
First, I’m pretty sure you’re **not** talking about NO2, which is a nasty atmospheric pollutant that is severely toxic and injurious in very low concentrations and doesn’t appear to have much of an an anesthetic/narcotic effect:
> **[Nitrogen dioxide poisoning](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_dioxide_poisoning)**
>
> Nitrogen dioxide poisoning is the illness resulting from the toxic effect of nitrogen dioxide (NO2). It usually occurs after the inhalation of the gas beyond the threshold limit value.
> Nitrogen dioxide is reddish-brown with a very harsh smell at high concentrations, at lower concentrations it is colorless but may still have a harsh odour. Nitrogen dioxide poisoning depends on the duration, frequency, and intensity of exposure.
> Nitrogen dioxide is an irritant of the mucous membrane linked with an...
Instead, you are almost certainly talking about nitrous oxide, N2O:
> **[Nitrous oxide](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrous_oxide)**
>
> .mw-parser-output .ib-chembox{border-collapse:collapse;text-align:left}.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox td,.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox th{border:1px solid #a2a9b1;width:40%}.mw-parser-output .ib-chembox td+td{width:60%}
> Nitrous oxide (dinitrogen oxide or dinitrogen monoxide), commonly known as laughing gas, nitrous, nitro, or nos, is a chemical compound, an oxide of nitrogen with the formula N2O. At room temperature, it is a colourless non-flammable gas, and has a slightly sweet scent and taste...
N2O has anesthetic/intoxicant effects even when oxygen is present in life-sustaining concentrations. So yes, it can induce an altered state of consciousness (potentially unpleasant) without progressing all the way to unconsciousness.
Pure nitrogen, N2, isn’t like that. It is a non-toxic asphyxiant at normal atmospheric pressures, meaning the only way it kills you is by keeping ambient oxygen from getting into your lungs. There will be virtually no effect on your state of consciousness, except to quickly end it. Time of useful consciousness, a concept associated with high-altitude aviation, is relevant here:
> **[Time of useful consciousness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)**
>
> Time of useful consciousness (TUC), also effective performance time (EPT), is defined as the amount of time an individual is able to function effectively (e.g. perform flying duties) in an environment of inadequate oxygen supply. It is the period of time from the interruption of the oxygen supply or exposure to an oxygen-poor environment to the time when useful function is lost, and the individual is no longer capable of taking proper corrective and protective action. It is not the time to tot Fo...
The table there shows that at an altitude of 50,000 feet, where the partial pressure of O2 is about 10% of its normal sea-level value, a person is rendered unconscious in about five seconds. If you’re breathing pure N2, then the partial pressure of O2 is zero, and TUC will be even shorter; you will go from conscious to unconscious after just a few breaths. No hallucinations, no delirium - there’s simply no more oxygen for the person’s brain to work with.
The danger to others who might be in the room can easily be virtually eliminated by managing the amount of N2 used and the size of the room. A person’s tidal volume is about 0.0177 cubic feet, and a normal respiration rate is about 20 breaths per minute. So a person needs 0.354 cubic feet of air per minute, which adds up to 3.54 cubic feet in ten minutes’ time. So in terms of N2, maybe you quadruple that that to assure plenty of overflow into the mask so that the person never draws in atmospheric air through any leaks in the mask, so figure you need about 15 cubic feet of N2. Just to be certain, you get an industry-standard 80-cubic-foot cylinder of N2, about five times more than your overflow requirement. Suppose the execution chamber is a cube 10 feet on a side, therefore containing 1000 cubic feet of air. Even if you leaked the entire 80 cubic feet of N2 from that bottle into the room, you’d only reduce the concentration of O2 in the room by about 7.5%, the equivalent of ascending from sea level to an altitude of about 3000 feet. Under these conditions, observers in the room would be getting more oxygen than **[airline passengers](https://skybrary.aero/articles/cabin-altitude#:~:text=Discussion,supplemental%20oxygen%20is%20not%20required.)**. The only safety consideration you’d need is to assure that the air in that room is well-mixed, which you could achieve with a desk fan. All of this assumes no HVAC supply of fresh air into the room at all.
You do raise a good point about thermal safety. compressed gases like N2 are typically delivered in cylinders with pressures of around 1800 psi. Assuming the cylinder is at room temperature, when this high-pressure gas is released to atmospheric pressure via adiabatic expansion, the temperature drops to around -320F, almost enough to start producing liquid nitrogen. This super-cold gas would need to be passed through a heat exchanger to make it warm enough for safe breathing before sending it to the person’s mask.
> [@asterion](#):
>
> All my training regarding simple asphyxiant gases like nitrogen and helium were all the same. That as long as there is no build up of carbon dioxide you do not feel that you are not getting enough or any oxygen until it is too late and your body is on the floor.
This. As I mentioned upthread, you can find videos of people unexpectedly passing out after drawing sequential breaths from a helium balloon. The same thing can happen with nitrogen. In 2013, **[party organizers in Mexico poured a few buckets of liquid N2 into a swimming pool](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2344213/Man-21-left-COMA-faint-organizers-Mexico-pool-party-promoting-Jagermeister-pour-liquid-nitrogen-water.html)** to create a fog effect, and the resulting N2 vapor cloud blanketed the pool and kept breathable air away. People in the pool passed out rather quickly and had to be rescued.
> [@echoreply](#):
>
> There isn’t any question that if a person breathes 100% N2 for a few minutes they will become dead, the question is are they being tortured prior to becoming dead. N2 asphyxiation can involve vomiting and convulsions, and that may be torture.
Unconsciousness happens so quickly that any vomiting/convulsions, if they happen at all, would only happen after they could no longer be perceived by the person. Whether N2 execution constitutes torture would not depend on any physical aspects of the procedure.
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#):
>
> A more basic mask - the sort that simply uses a tube (to the oxygen tank) and an elastic strap around the head - will really not do the job.
The shittiest-sealing mask imaginable will get the job done here. All that’s necessary is to have an N2 flow rate into the mask that’s substantially greater than the person’s maximum inhalation rate. Once you’ve achieved that, then any leaks in the mask will only ever flow N2 outward; they’ll never flow atmospheric air inward.
> [@echoreply](#):
>
> That is also part of the concern. If there is too much positive flow from the mask, then the room may become dangerous to the other people in there.
See my analysis earlier in this post; you can have a _very_ high overflow rate for the duration of the execution while still having only a very slight effect on ambient O2 concentration in the room.
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Would that force the nitrogen supplier to sell the product to the state once they knew what the state intended to use it for?
N2 is used for many purposes. It’s available from all kinds of non-medical sources in all kinds of purity grades. Unlike prescription medications, you don’t need any kind of license or permit to buy it, and suppliers generally don’t ask their customers what they plan to use it for.
> [@hajario](#):
>
> Buy the gas on Amazon. Get a retired doctor to fit the mask. There’s probably one who will
No doctor required. As noted above, with adequate overflow, the mask does not need to fit very well at all.
---
### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/108 "2024-01-25T13:23:00Z")
> [@scudsucker](#):
>
> It is also a deleriant hallucinogen. Delerium is not fun. It is like a fever dream. Horrid experience,
Different strokes for different folks, I guess. Decades ago I dabbled in N2O and found it an enjoyable, though short-lived high. Always did it while sitting, so falling down wasn’t a concern.
---
### Author:  [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/109 "2024-01-25T13:28:47Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> This post is muddying the waters in a couple of ways.
You are correct.
I retract my inaccurate post.
---
### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/110 "2024-01-25T16:06:31Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> A person’s tidal volume is about 0.0177 cubic feet, and a normal respiration rate is about 20 breaths per minute. So a person needs 0.354 cubic feet of air per minute, which adds up to 3.54 cubic feet in ten minutes’ time. So in terms of N2, maybe you quadruple that that to assure plenty of overflow into the mask so that the person never draws in atmospheric air through any leaks in the mask, so figure you need about 15 cubic feet of N2.
The NIOSH standard for a positive-pressure mask is a minimum flow rate of 4 cfm for moderate work rates, so about 10x normal respiration. It’s not the average intake you need to worry about; it’s the peak flow as someone is taking a deep breath.
Given that a prisoner is likely to be under stress and breathing rapidly, you probably want a flow rate even greater than 4 cfm (NIOSH allows flow rates up to 15 cfm).
None of this changes your basic argument - the excess nitrogen is not going to be an issue under these conditions.
---
### Author:  [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/111 "2024-01-25T16:55:53Z")
BTW, is it obvious from the body that the death was caused by nitrogen? Because all this talk about how easy nitrogen and a suitable mask is to buy and how fast it will kill someone…sounds like a handy murder option.
(I mean, finding nitrogen in the lungs shouldn’t be suspicious, right? I mean, we all walk around breathing about 80% nitrogen our whole lives anyway.)
---
### Author:  [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/112 "2024-01-25T17:52:42Z")
Do you need an answer fast?
😉
---
### Author:  [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/113 "2024-01-25T18:00:49Z")
It’s going to happen later today barring some other intervention.
From the article below:
> The mask the state will place over Smith’s face is a “NIOSH-approved Type-C full facepiece supplied air respirator,” which is a type of mask sometimes used by industrial workers to get life-saving oxygen, the Associated Press reported, citing a court filing related to the execution.
> “After the nitrogen gas is introduced, it will be administered for (1) fifteen minutes or (2) five minutes following a flatline indication on the EKG, whichever is longer,” reads a portion of Alabama’s protocol for execution by nitrogen hypoxia.
> **[What is nitrogen hypoxia? Alabama's Kenneth Smith execution to proceed with...](https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/what-is-nitrogen-hypoxia-alabama-execution-kenneth-eugene-smith-death-row-untested-controversial/)**
>
> A death row inmate in Alabama is scheduled to be executed on Thursday, Jan. 25, using nitrogen gas. It will be the first U.S. execution carried out this way.
The mask will be something like this, I think
[
[image]
](https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fstatic.grainger.com%2Frp%2Fs%2Fis%2Fimage%2FGrainger%2F45YR69_AS01&tbnid=Q12EKRrcYOO8SM&vet=12ahUKEwj7wt66j_mDAxVbM0QIHSolCdMQ94IIKAF6BQgBEPQC..i&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.grainger.com%2Fproduct%2FMSA-Supplied-Air-Respirator-Gen-45YR69&docid=bu5GarOU1XNPYM&w=1125&h=1187&q=NIOSH-approved%20Type-C%20full%20facepiece%20supplied%20air%20respirator&hl=en-us&client=safari&ved=2ahUKEwj7wt66j_mDAxVbM0QIHSolCdMQ94IIKAF6BQgBEPQC)
---
### Author:  [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/114 "2024-01-25T18:03:21Z")
I appreciate the info. Especially @Machine_Elf’s post.
My question is: nitrogen is considered humane because nitrogen asphyxiation doesn’t increase the CO2 level in the blood stream and CO2 is what makes you feel like you’re suffocating.
Is that still the case when a mask is used? Doesn’t the wearer re-breathe their own exhalations resulting in increased CO2?
---
### Author:  [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/115 "2024-01-25T18:18:14Z")
> [@74westy](#):
>
> Is that still the case when a mask is used? Doesn’t the wearer re-breathe their own exhalations resulting in increased CO2?
Only to a small extent. The method is known to work so it’s really more about how competent Alabama officials are. They don’t have a great track record in that regard.
That said, it’s likely to work, but I’d rather not trust my death to those bozos if given a choice.
---
### Author:  [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/116 "2024-01-25T18:23:07Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#):
>
> Only to a small extent
Not even a small extent. You’d breathe more CO2 without a mask than you will with a positive pressure mask at an appropriate flow rate.
---
### Author:  [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/117 "2024-01-25T18:30:49Z")
Fair, it’s not concentration but the actual amount of CO2 present that does necessarily increase. Either way, if properly done, it shouldn’t trigger any suffocation reaction
---
### Author:  [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/118 "2024-01-25T19:06:53Z")
Similarly, you’d think you might feel uncomfortable wearing a respirator due to carbon dioxide buildup, but you don’t. Yes, breathing overall often feels more labor intensive since you have to overcome the resistance of the filters, but I’ve never felt like I was suffocating from not pushing out CO2 with my own breathing.
---
### Author:  [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/119 "2024-01-25T19:23:50Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> The shittiest-sealing mask imaginable will get the job done here.
Is there a difference in rebreathing escape gasses like oxygen and carbon dioxide depending on the mask? I’m thinking you want a poor seal so that the nitrogen can push out of the mask everything that is not N2 before the next breath.
And don’t people in that euthanasia advocacy group (the name escapes me. Hemlock Society?) kill themselves with nothing more than a N2 canister, a hose and a large plastic bag? That’s a lot leakier than your worst mask.
---
### Author:  [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)
#### Post date: [January 25, 2024, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572/120 "2024-01-25T19:31:16Z")
I cannot think of a single method of execution that death-penalty opponents would ever concede is sufficiently humane. If nitrogen is “cruel,” then literally everything is. If Alabama went back to lethal injection, these DP-opponents would insist that is cruel, too.
[Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572.md?page=5)
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-retries-failed-execution-with-untried-method-nitrogen/996572.md?page=7)