# Alabama’s unemployment rate continues to plummet **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 26, 2012, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786 "2012-01-26T23:45:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/21 "2012-01-27T16:29:28Z")
So even if the hypothesis is correct, so what? a. You haven’t created any new jobs. b. The jobs that people are getting are pretty crummy (which is why low-paying undocumented immigrants were doing them). c. You have less business at these jobs (because some fraction of your customer base just got told to GTFO). d. All the unemployed immigrants now went somewhere else, so they’re someone else’s problem in a neighboring state. Or they’re hanging around committing crimes in desperation. Or they’re making even less money working under even worse conditions for someone who is willing to flout the law if it’s profitable enough. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/22 "2012-01-27T17:05:17Z")
This also coincides with the BRAC movement of the army materiel command to Huntsville. A great many of my Federal Contractor friends are opening offices down there - and having trouble getting their employees to move. The riff’ed NASA folks are an excellent match for these openings. . . ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2012, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/23 "2012-01-27T17:21:58Z")
One would think that if the unemployment rate is so closely tied to illegal immigration, movement of the former should closely follow movement of the latter for the country as a whole. Shouldn’t be too hard to demonstrate such a trend, and yet FAIR hasn’t tried as far as I can tell (or at least hasn’t published the results of such a study). ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/24 "2012-02-01T20:31:50Z")
Here’s a story: Alabama’s economy has lost out on $10.8 billion due to the immigration law, including almost $350 million in tax revenues at the state and local level. [Link.](http://news.yahoo.com/alabama-immigration-crackdown-costs-state-11-bln-study-155547677.html) ---
**Author:** ![Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7ba0ec/32.png) [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omg_a_Black_Conservative)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/25 "2012-02-01T20:44:02Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Here’s a story: Alabama’s economy has lost out on $10.8 billion due to the immigration law, including almost $350 million in tax revenues at the state and local level. > > [Link.](http://news.yahoo.com/alabama-immigration-crackdown-costs-state-11-bln-study-155547677.html) So, if I’m reading that right, Alabama’s economy has lost out on $10.8B because of illegals losing their jobs? So what’s preventing those jobs from being filled by legal immigrants/citizens of the U.S.? (And how do you calculate income tax paid by illegal immigrants? 😕) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [February 1, 2012, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/26 "2012-02-01T20:48:03Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > (And how do you calculate income tax paid by illegal immigrants? 😕) You don’t think illegals are tax evaders, do you? They aren’t _Americans._ ETA: and as far as replacing the work done by illegal immigrants, Stephen Colbert had some insights on how it may be difficult to find Americans to do all those jobs: [Link.](http://kiplange.com/2010/09/transcript-of-stephen-colberts-testimony-before-congress.html) > [@](#): > > Now, I’ll admit – I started my workday with preconceived notions of migrant labor. But after working with these men and women, picking beans, packing corn, for hours on end, side by side in the unforgiving sun, I have to say – and I do mean this sincerely – please don’t make me do this again. It is really, really hard. For one thing, when you’re picking beans, you have to spend all day bending over. It turns out, and I did not know this, but most soil is at ground level. If we can put a man on the moon, why can’t we make the earth waist high? Come on! Where is the funding? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/27 "2012-02-02T03:02:34Z")
> [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So, if I’m reading that right, Alabama’s economy has lost out on $10.8B because of illegals losing their jobs? So what’s preventing those jobs from being filled by legal immigrants/citizens of the U.S.? According to complaints by farmers I heard on an NPR story a while ago, the legal residents found farm work to be too hard, most quitting after a day or less. They also work more slowly, costing the farmers money in lost produce. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/28 "2012-02-02T03:15:11Z")
Maybe there are a lot of new jobs hunting for illegal immigrants? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/29 "2012-02-02T03:19:21Z")
Thing about “stoop labor” is not the labor, its the stoop. The actual labor isn’t so hard, its the physical position you must maintain to perform the labor. As an interrogation technique, it would be illegal under international law. One need not be physically strong, women and children can do the work pretty near as well as a full grown man. An ability to endure suffering is just about the only requirement, outside of absorbing some simple instructions. Of course, motivation is crucial to the stoop labor employee. And if there is one thing the undocumented worker has in abundance, it is motivation. About the only thing he has in abundance. And pain, of course, but that’s harder to sell, everybody has some and nobody wants more. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/30 "2012-02-02T03:20:00Z")
[http://www.npr.org/2011/10/08/141183030/can-the-u-s-economy-really-function-without-undocumented-workers](http://www.npr.org/2011/10/08/141183030/can-the-u-s-economy-really-function-without-undocumented-workers) > [@](#): > > Some economists theorize that without all those undocumented immigrants, the supply of labor will dry up and businesses will have to pay more to attract new, legal workers. Tomatoes end up costing more, but Alabama’s 10 percent employment rate goes down. > > But the theory isn’t working so far at Boatwright’s farm. > > “Since this law went in to effect, I’ve had a total 11 people that were Americans come and ask for work,” Boatwright says. “A total of one of those actually came back the next day.” > > That one worker picked about four boxes of tomatoes before leaving the field and quitting, Boatwright says. He says picking crops in the fields is a specialized skill that Americans just aren’t accustomed to doing. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2012, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/31 "2012-02-02T06:29:51Z")
It sounds like a lot Alabama farmers don’t want to pay the market price for their employees. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2012, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/32 "2012-02-03T03:45:39Z")
> [@Simplicio](#): > > But both Alabama and Michigan have large auto-industry sectors. I suspect thats the reason for better then average drops in unemployment for both states, as the autoindustry has been rebounding. Yep this is what I have read and heard I don’t have the cite but if Freakonmics thinks it might be part of the answer, then I’m in! And really are we saying that it is a good thing that there are more McDonald’s jobs? ---
**Author:** ![gatorslap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gatorslap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gatorslap)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/33 "2012-02-04T05:29:05Z")
> [@sisu](#): > > And really are we saying that it is a good thing that there are more McDonald’s jobs? No, but apparently it is a good thing that there aren’t so many hispanics working there. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Obsidian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/51bf81/32.png) [@Obsidian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Obsidian)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/34 "2012-02-04T08:47:28Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It sounds like a lot Alabama farmers don’t want to pay the market price for their employees. I imagine that would be because American shoppers don’t want to pay market price for their produce. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/35 "2012-02-04T12:27:07Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > [The Economic Reality Of Tough Immigration Laws : NPR](http://www.npr.org/2011/10/08/141183030/can-the-u-s-economy-really-function-without-undocumented-workers) Wait, what ? Picking tomatoes is a specialized skill now ? It’s lifting stuff off a waist-high vine, it doesn’t really \*get \*any more unskilled than this ! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/36 "2012-02-04T12:42:31Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > Wait, what ? Picking tomatoes is a specialized skill now ? It’s lifting stuff off a waist-high vine, it doesn’t really \*get \*any more unskilled than this ! Being willing to do so for extremely low pay with minimal rest while being exposed to dangerous levels of pesticide _is_ a specialized “skill”. Or in other words: > [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > It sounds like a lot Alabama farmers don’t want to pay the market price for their employees. I’d add “or treat them like human beings” to that. > [@Omg\_a\_Black\_Conservative](#): > > So, if I’m reading that right, Alabama’s economy has lost out on $10.8B because of illegals losing their jobs? So what’s preventing those jobs from being filled by legal immigrants/citizens of the U.S.? You are assuming that the people leaving are doing so because they are all illegal aliens. They aren’t. These laws are an excuse to persecute people for being poor and brown, not because they are illegal anything. Plenty of legal citizens flee laws like this, and the persecution that goes along with them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/37 "2012-02-04T14:13:35Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > So even if the hypothesis is correct, so what? > > a. You haven’t created any new jobs. > > b. The jobs that people are getting are pretty crummy (which is why low-paying undocumented immigrants were doing them). > > c. You have less business at these jobs (because some fraction of your customer base just got told to GTFO). > > d. All the unemployed immigrants now went somewhere else, so they’re someone else’s problem in a neighboring state. Or they’re hanging around committing crimes in desperation. Or they’re making even less money working under even worse conditions for someone who is willing to flout the law if it’s profitable enough. This. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/38 "2012-02-04T14:15:06Z")
And, of course, none of this fuss would exist if the immigration-pressure were coming from Canada instead of Mexico. ---
**Author:** ![PrettyVacant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/49beb7/32.png) [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/39 "2012-02-04T14:18:21Z")
Why, in the first place, would MacDonalds employ non-US workers over US nationals? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786/40 "2012-02-04T16:07:41Z")
It wouldn’t. There is no economic benefit to hiring undocumented workers if you pay them the same as everyone else. I suppose there is some number of undocumented workers who are proficient enough in English to be hired over locals, and have borrowed Social Security numbers, but I can’t imagine there are many. Some years ago there was a class action suit filed claiming that Wal-Mart was hiring illegal immigrants at below minimum wage to work custodial jobs. Back then, right-wingers weren’t pissed about them being hired, just that they were demanding [equal pay](http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=walmart). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-s-unemployment-rate-continues-to-plummet/610786.md?page=3)