# Alabama woman indicted for the death of her unborn child after being shot by someone else **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136 "2019-06-27T02:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/1 "2019-06-27T02:17:06Z")
Was gonna do this in Great Debates, but no. No, no, no. > **[Woman loses unborn child after being shot, gets arrested](https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2019/06/woman-indicted-in-shooting-death-of-her-unborn-child-charges-against-shooter-dismissed.html)** > > Marshae Jones, a 27-year-old Birmingham woman, was indicted by a Jefferson County grand jury on a manslaughter charge. The woman didn’t even shoot herself! She supposedly instigated the fight which meant that she endangered her fetus recklessly. In fact, the grand jury didn’t even indict the actual shooter who shot actual bullets into her! I want to say it’s an Alabama thing and more to the point say that it’s a young black female in Alabama thing. And sure, all of that is not incorrect. But let’s look at the bigger picture: This is literally blaming the victim. This is literally putting the rights of an unborn, nonviable fetus above the woman. This is literally what happens when “personhood” is granted to unborn, nonviable fetuses. This is literally what people have warned would happen if the anti-choicers got their way. (Fuck calling them pro-life. None of them have tried to change immigration laws by posting pictures of that dead father and daughter but they sure will post fake-ass aborted fetuses to try and change reproductive rights.) This is a fucking travesty. Fuck everyone who made this determination and decided that it was even a close approximation of what we call “justice.” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/2 "2019-06-27T02:21:35Z")
How is this “blaming the victim”? If she attacked another person and got shot, she is not the victim. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/3 "2019-06-27T02:22:10Z")
> [@](#): > > “The investigation showed that the only true victim in this was the unborn baby,’’ Pleasant Grove police Lt. Danny Reid said at the time of the shooting. “It was the mother of the child who initiated and continued the fight which resulted in the death of her own unborn baby.” > [@](#): > > “Let’s not lose sight that the unborn baby is the victim here,’’ Reid said. “She had no choice in being brought unnecessarily into a fight where she was relying on her mother for protection.” Fetus killed in a car accident? Arrest the mother for not protecting the fetus. Fetus killed because mom got sick and pregnancy was compromised? Arrest the mother for not protecting the fetus. Wait’ll you hear about our other state policies! Welcome to Alabama! ---
**Author:** ![John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_stamos_left_ear/32/3198_2.png) [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Stamos_Left_Ear)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/4 "2019-06-27T02:36:05Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > How is this “blaming the victim”? If she attacked another person and got shot, she is not the victim. The whole getting shot thing made her the victim. She was not shooting and here is no evidence she used any other weapon. I appreciate that gun nuts love escalating altercations with firearms, but that doesn’t mean it’s an appropriate action nor that the person who escalates avoids responsibility because “she started it,” which didn’t even work when I was nine fighting my brothers. ---
**Author:** ![Unreconstructed\_Man](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/76d3ee/32.png) [@Unreconstructed\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Unreconstructed_Man)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/5 "2019-06-27T02:38:32Z")
This is some dark ages level bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/6 "2019-06-27T02:57:30Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The whole getting shot thing made her the victim. Do you find that “getting shot” makes a person a victim, regardless of the circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/7 "2019-06-27T03:14:42Z")
I just read the link in the OP. Apparently the pregnant woman attacked another woman and “pressed the attack” to the point where the other woman had to defend herself with a firearm. Apparently the police and prosecutor both agree that was a reasonable and lawful response. Given the concept of “felony murder”, I’m not seeing how this arrest is wrong under current law. Personally I feel that “murder of an unborn child” is a ridiculous law, and having a charge of “ADW resulting in miscarriage” would make sense. Of course that would apply here only if the second woman had initiated the attack. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/8 "2019-06-27T03:17:18Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The whole getting shot thing made her the victim. She was not shooting and here is no evidence she used any other weapon. I appreciate that gun nuts love escalating altercations with firearms, but that doesn’t mean it’s an appropriate action nor that the person who escalates avoids responsibility because “she started it,” which didn’t even work when I was nine fighting my brothers. What if she is a great deal stronger than the woman she attacked? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/9 "2019-06-27T03:19:56Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > Was gonna do this in Great Debates, but no. No, no, no. > > [Alabama woman loses unborn child after being shot, gets arrested; shooter goes free - al.com](https://www.al.com/news/birmingham/2019/06/woman-indicted-in-shooting-death-of-her-unborn-child-charges-against-shooter-dismissed.html) > > The woman didn’t even shoot herself! She supposedly instigated the fight which meant that she endangered her fetus recklessly. In fact, the grand jury didn’t even indict the actual shooter who shot actual bullets into her! > > I want to say it’s an Alabama thing and more to the point say that it’s a young black female in Alabama thing. And sure, all of that is not incorrect. But let’s look at the bigger picture: > > This is literally blaming the victim. > This is literally putting the rights of an unborn, nonviable fetus above the woman. > This is literally what happens when “personhood” is granted to unborn, nonviable fetuses. > This is literally what people have warned would happen if the anti-choicers got their way. > > (Fuck calling them pro-life. None of them have tried to change immigration laws by posting pictures of that dead father and daughter but they sure will post fake-ass aborted fetuses to try and change reproductive rights.) > > This is a fucking travesty. Fuck everyone who made this determination and decided that it was even a close approximation of what we call “justice.” Out of curiosity would you be better with shooter being charged? IOW is your problem with the idea of responding to an attack with a firearm as justifiable and the attacker of the gun holder being held as the person responsible for the gun use, or with the death of the fetus being a crime? ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/10 "2019-06-27T04:23:08Z")
How many news reports do we see of children accidently being shot and killed because there was a loaded firearm in the home. Those are always “tragic accidents” and IIRC the firearm owner isn’t generally charged. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/11 "2019-06-27T04:38:47Z")
> [@John\_Stamos\_Left\_Ear](#): > > The whole getting shot thing made her the victim. She was not shooting and here is no evidence she used any other weapon. I appreciate that gun nuts love escalating altercations with firearms, but that doesn’t mean it’s an appropriate action nor that the person who escalates avoids responsibility because “she started it,” which didn’t even work when I was nine fighting my brothers. Escalating? Why was there an altercation in the first place? What is the assailed supposed to do in self defense- use a fist, then a knee, then try a baton, then a pocketknife, and then if still able, use the firearm? Not every target is a physical match for an attacker (or intruder). This is why firearms are sometimes called ‘equalizers’. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/12 "2019-06-27T06:40:05Z")
Jemison, the shooter, was shooting in self-defense, so the grand jury rightly didn’t indict her. But to charge Jones, the pregnant woman, with manslaughter is insane. She was not the direct cause of the fetus’ death. She didn’t direct Jemison to shoot her in the stomach. (Again, not blaming Jemison.) Did she even know Jemison had a gun? If Alabama wants to get all Alabama-y about this, they could, I suppose, charge Jones with reckless endangerment, though even that’s dicey. To charge her with manslaughter is ridiculous. If she’s convicted, expect a successful appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/13 "2019-06-27T07:46:52Z")
You know, I get that I’m just a distant foreigner and most of my information comes from sensational stories and TV series… but is it just me or are Alabama and Florida somehow permanently locked in an escalating loop of “This is just the most backwards idiotic thing I’ve ever heard of” “Hold m’beer.” ? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 8:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/14 "2019-06-27T08:15:43Z")
Well, they’re neighbors… and Mississippi, another contender for the title of “most awkward thing done while beer was held”, is right next to Alabama. but part of the reason why we hear so many stupid things from Florida is that [Florida publishes all stupid things done there](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UD9LEPML8uk) and requiring police intervention, to an extent others don’t. I suspect if Alaska had a similar law they’d have quite a bit to say, and they’re pretty much on the other end of North America. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/15 "2019-06-27T10:59:51Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You know, I get that I’m just a distant foreigner and most of my information comes from sensational stories and TV series… but is it just me or are Alabama and Florida somehow permanently locked in an escalating loop of “This is just the most backwards idiotic thing I’ve ever heard of” “Hold m’beer.” ? Nope, it is not just you. Those two states are infamous for weird and stupid stuff. There’s a couple of others that are not so bad but still full of weird and stupid, too ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/16 "2019-06-27T12:24:27Z")
Fine, the woman who was shot was not a victim since she initiated the fight. I still don’t see how she should be charged with anything regarding her pregnancy. I could see a charge for assault (for the fight she started with the woman who shot her), but that’s it. Can we focus on the ridiculous charge against the woman herself? Is it illegal to take the wrong prescription drugs while pregnant? To drink or smoke? Is there an extra charge of child endangerment for driving without a seat belt while pregnant? Is it illegal to ride a roller coaster? Should drug users get charged with child endangerment if they’re pregnant? It would seem that the answer to all of these questions would be “Yes” in Alabama. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/17 "2019-06-27T12:41:23Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Should drug users get charged with child endangerment if they’re pregnant? There are already several states where this happens. Edit: [Cite.](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/05/into-the-body-of-another/392522/) ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/18 "2019-06-27T12:48:48Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > There are already several states where this happens. Edit: [Cite.](https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2015/05/into-the-body-of-another/392522/) Well, that’s just fucking great. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/19 "2019-06-27T14:03:03Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Fine, the woman who was shot was not a victim since she initiated the fight. I still don’t see how she should be charged with anything regarding her pregnancy. I could see a charge for assault (for the fight she started with the woman who shot her), but that’s it. Can we focus on the ridiculous charge against the woman herself? > > Is it illegal to take the wrong prescription drugs while pregnant? To drink or smoke? Is there an extra charge of child endangerment for driving without a seat belt while pregnant? Is it illegal to ride a roller coaster? Should drug users get charged with child endangerment if they’re pregnant? > > It would seem that the answer to all of these questions would be “Yes” in Alabama. I think it’s a combination of ‘things that happen because you performed a crime’ and ‘the unborn are people with all the rights of people’. The frequent example for the first point is if someone is shot as part of you robbing a bank; you can now be charged with murder. If the end of a fetus by gunshot is called murder, then one can call the end of a fetus by abortion murder. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/20 "2019-06-27T14:23:59Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > I think it’s a combination of ‘things that happen because you performed a crime’ and ‘the unborn are people with all the rights of people’. > > The frequent example for the first point is if someone is shot as part of you robbing a bank; you can now be charged with murder. If the end of a fetus by gunshot is called murder, then one can call the end of a fetus by abortion murder. So, what about drinking, smoking, riding a roller coaster, or taking legally prescribed drugs that may be dangerous to the fetus? Those all endanger the fetus (what you’re calling a person with all the rights of a person) just like getting into a fight. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136.md?page=2)