# Alabama woman indicted for the death of her unborn child after being shot by someone else **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136 "2019-06-27T02:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/21 "2019-06-27T14:31:48Z")
OK, so it looks like these are the facts: 1: Jones attacked Jemison. This would support an indictment for assualt. 2: Jemison shot Jones. This does not support an indictment, because this action was taken in self-defense. But if we accept the premises that Alabama is working under, then the facts continue: 3: Jemison also shot the fetus. The fetus was not attacking Jemison, and in fact posed no threat to her whatsoever. This cannot be self-defense. If killing the fetus is a crime, then how did Jemison not commit that crime? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/22 "2019-06-27T14:40:35Z")
Further thought: One of the folks quoted in the article points out that, by this precedent, a woman could also be charged for providing inadequate prenatal medical care. But Alabama has also done everything in their power to stop poor folks from getting medical care (including, specifically, prenatal care). Justice would be to charge all of those politicians for the murder of those fetuses who died because of their policies. But justice ain’t gonna be what we’re gonna get. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/23 "2019-06-27T14:47:00Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You know, I get that I’m just a distant foreigner and most of my information comes from sensational stories and TV series… but is it just me or are Alabama and Florida somehow permanently locked in an escalating loop of “This is just the most backwards idiotic thing I’ve ever heard of” “Hold m’beer.” ? > [@Broomstick](#): > > Nope, it is not just you. Those two states are infamous for weird and stupid stuff. There’s a couple of others that are not so bad but still full of weird and stupid, too Wisconsin is also pretty funky, watched [Wisconsin Death Trip](https://aux.avclub.com/michael-lesy-wisconsin-death-trip-1798193835) [it is from a book of the same name] and was highly amused - who knew Cheeslandia was so funky! ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/24 "2019-06-27T15:10:40Z")
If this becomes the practice of the land, eventually laws will be passed forcing pregnant women to stay in the house and do nothing until they give birth. If she goes outside, she might expose the “child” to unsafe chemicals in the air. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/25 "2019-06-27T15:14:57Z")
What if you start a fight with someone and they shoot at you in what seems like justifiable self defense and the bullet misses you or goes through you and kills your child who was behind you at the time? Are you liable for instigating in your child’s presence? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/26 "2019-06-27T15:51:03Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What if you start a fight with someone and they shoot at you in what seems like justifiable self defense and the bullet misses you or goes through you and kills your child who was behind you at the time? Are you liable for instigating in your child’s presence? I think that if you brought your child with you someplace and then started a fight, it’s possible you could be charged with child endangerment. Obviously, I don’t think that would apply to bringing your fetus someplace, but I’m not an Alabama legislator. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/27 "2019-06-27T16:03:36Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If this becomes the practice of the land, eventually laws will be passed forcing pregnant women to stay in the house and do nothing until they give birth. If she goes outside, she might expose the “child” to unsafe chemicals in the air. You say that like it’s a bug wrt the philosophy behind these laws and practices. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/28 "2019-06-27T16:13:31Z")
What if she had been holding a child in her arms instead of being pregnant? When the shooting have been deemed justified? If she was obviously pregnant, then the shooter, by Alabama law, fired at both a mother _and_ her child. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/29 "2019-06-27T16:13:41Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I think that if you brought your child with you someplace and then started a fight, it’s possible you could be charged with child endangerment. Obviously, I don’t think that would apply to bringing your fetus someplace, but I’m not an Alabama legislator. “Bringing your fetus someplace”? What are you supposed to do, leave it at home? ETA: What would happen if the woman didn’t know she was pregnant when the incident happened? ---
**Author:** ![pool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pool/32/4152_2.png) [@pool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pool)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/30 "2019-06-27T16:17:09Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > How many news reports do we see of children accidently being shot and killed because there was a loaded firearm in the home. Those are always “tragic accidents” and IIRC the firearm owner isn’t generally charged. That’s not generally true I’ve read numerous news stories where a parent or boyfriend left a firearm unsecured and the kid got a hold of it and killed themselves or another child, and usually from what I’ve see an adult is charged. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/31 "2019-06-27T16:32:54Z")
I understand there’s a sealed indictment for the fetus if this one falls through. _Someone’s_ going to pay for this, god damn it! ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_McQwark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4da419/32.png) [@Steve\_McQwark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_McQwark)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/32 "2019-06-27T16:40:54Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > If this becomes the practice of the land, eventually laws will be passed forcing pregnant women to stay in the house and do nothing until they give birth. If she goes outside, she might expose the “child” to unsafe chemicals in the air. I believe that it is a GOP “fact” that there are no unsafe chemicals in the air, therefore she is allowed to go outside and drive to the grocery store to buy the ingredients to make her husband’s dinner when he comes home from his job working for that nice Mr. Drysdale. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/33 "2019-06-27T17:08:38Z")
The law in Alabama is clear: once a woman is pregnant, she exists only to aid the fetus growing inside her. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/34 "2019-06-27T17:39:13Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > What if you start a fight with someone and they shoot at you in what seems like justifiable self defense and the bullet misses you or goes through you and kills your child who was behind you at the time? Are you liable for instigating in your child’s presence? Does the fact that it’s _your_ kid matter? Say you start that fight with someone who then shoots _“at you in what seems like justifiable self-defense and the bullet misses you or goes through you and kills”_ — someone else altogether: you don’t know her, the shooter doesn’t know her; maybe she just happens to be walking around the corner right then; maybe she’s pregnant, and maybe said bullet ends said pregnancy. Who, if anyone, is liable in that case? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/35 "2019-06-27T17:50:56Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > Does the fact that it’s _your_ kid matter? Say you start that fight with someone who then shoots _“at you in what seems like justifiable self-defense and the bullet misses you or goes through you and kills”_ — someone else altogether: you don’t know her, the shooter doesn’t know her; maybe she just happens to be walking around the corner right then; maybe she’s pregnant, and maybe said bullet ends said pregnancy. > > Who, if anyone, is liable in that case? I’m sorry, but if Alabama law says that what she is carrying is a human being, then the shooter fired at a woman that had a child in _front_ of her, not behind her. ---
**Author:** ![mischievous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/c2a13f/32.png) [@mischievous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mischievous)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/36 "2019-06-27T17:59:32Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so it looks like these are the facts: > 1: Jones attacked Jemison. This would support an indictment for assualt. > 2: Jemison shot Jones. This does not support an indictment, because this action was taken in self-defense. > > But if we accept the premises that Alabama is working under, then the facts continue: > 3: Jemison also shot the fetus. The fetus was not attacking Jemison, and in fact posed no threat to her whatsoever. This cannot be self-defense. If killing the fetus is a crime, then how did Jemison not commit that crime? It’s the whole point of “felony murder” laws. If you set up a violent situation (i.e. you rob a bank) and someone gets killed (i.e. the police are aiming for you but hit one of the hostages), you’re still responsible for creating the situation. If, for instance, Jones had attacked Jemison, Jemison had responded appropriately, and some _other_ pregnant person had gotten shot by accident and lost her child (let’s call her Andrea), I think that more people would support Andrea’s anger against Jones and not Jemison. This is complicated by the fact that it’s pitting the mother’s interest against the fetus, and the fact that fetal personhood laws are vile abusive ways to do so. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/37 "2019-06-27T18:17:54Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > “Bringing your fetus someplace”? What are you supposed to do, leave it at home? > > ETA: What would happen if the woman didn’t know she was pregnant when the incident happened? As I said, _ **I** _ don’t think it should apply when you bring your fetus someplace, but I’m not an Alabama legislator. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/38 "2019-06-27T18:20:16Z")
> [@mischievous](#): > > It’s the whole point of “felony murder” laws. If you set up a violent situation (i.e. you rob a bank) and someone gets killed (i.e. the police are aiming for you but hit one of the hostages), you’re still responsible for creating the situation. > > If, for instance, Jones had attacked Jemison, Jemison had responded appropriately, and some _other_ pregnant person had gotten shot by accident and lost her child (let’s call her Andrea), I think that more people would support Andrea’s anger against Jones and not Jemison. > > This is complicated by the fact that it’s pitting the mother’s interest against the fetus, and the fact that fetal personhood laws are vile abusive ways to do so. You’re the second person to bring up felony murder laws. They only would apply if the fetus is a person, and I think from your post that you agree this is ridiculous. However, if the felony murder laws apply, then so would laws against drinking, smoking, taking the wrong prescription drugs, or riding a roller coaster while pregnant. They all put the fetus in danger, which is a person under the theory that a felony murder charge makes sense in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/39 "2019-06-27T18:28:16Z")
Yes, **mischievous** , that follows from the premises that Alabama is using: If the fetus is a person, then Jones can be guilty of the fetus’ murder by reason of felony murder rules. But that doesn’t mean that Jemison isn’t also guilty of murder. Jemison’s shooting of Jones was justified by self-defense, but Jemison’s shooting of the fetus was not. So why isn’t Jemison being charged, too? In practice, I suspect it comes down to another principle of Alabama law: Namely, that if you have a gun, everything you do is automatically good and right. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/40 "2019-06-27T18:44:13Z")
Clearly, she brought a fetus to a gun fight. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136.md?page=3)