# Alabama woman indicted for the death of her unborn child after being shot by someone else **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2019, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136 "2019-06-27T02:17:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/41 "2019-06-27T18:55:35Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > You’re the second person to bring up felony murder laws. They only would apply if the fetus is a person, and I think from your post that you agree this is ridiculous. > > However, if the felony murder laws apply, then so would laws against drinking, smoking, taking the wrong prescription drugs, or riding a roller coaster while pregnant. They all put the fetus in danger, which is a person under the theory that a felony murder charge makes sense in this case. Two things that have not been fully tested and defined in the courts, but I think will be in the next 20 years: fetal personhood and corporate personhood. Both concepts taken to their extreme are part of a society that I doubt many of us want to be a part of, yet I’m gonna bet we find ourselves powerless to stop. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/42 "2019-06-27T21:11:01Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > So, what about drinking, smoking, riding a roller coaster, or taking legally prescribed drugs that may be dangerous to the fetus? Those all endanger the fetus (what you’re calling a person with all the rights of a person) just like getting into a fight. I am sure that those who consider a fetus a person would agree with your whatabouts. What I thought was implicit is that those same people are apparently trying to backdoor an understanding of fetus = person, upon which, yes, drinking and smoking and etc. very likely would become actionable. ---
**Author:** ![sps49sd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@sps49sd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sps49sd)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/43 "2019-06-27T21:14:11Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yes, **mischievous** , that follows from the premises that Alabama is using: If the fetus is a person, then Jones can be guilty of the fetus’ murder by reason of felony murder rules. But that doesn’t mean that Jemison isn’t also guilty of murder. Jemison’s shooting of Jones was justified by self-defense, but Jemison’s shooting of the fetus was not. So why isn’t Jemison being charged, too? > > In practice, I suspect it comes down to another principle of Alabama law: Namely, that if you have a gun, everything you do is automatically good and right. Is this snark? Criminal acts frequently have enhancements added if firearms (and/ or other weapons) are used during said criminal acts. However, a fetus carried by an assailant could be in the same category as a bystander. How does the law treat bystanders injured in the course of self-defense?? ---
**Author:** ![Apollyon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/apollyon/32/4238_2.png) [@Apollyon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollyon)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/44 "2019-06-28T00:10:35Z")
> [@sps49sd](#): > > However, a fetus carried by an assailant could be in the same category as a bystander. How does the law treat bystanders injured in the course of self-defense?? And does it make a difference if you shoot the assailant and also accidentally hit a bystander versus shooting _through_ the bystander to get at the assailant? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/45 "2019-06-28T00:20:24Z")
> [@Kobal2](#): > > You know, I get that I’m just a distant foreigner and most of my information comes from sensational stories and TV series… but is it just me or are Alabama and Florida somehow permanently locked in an escalating loop of “This is just the most backwards idiotic thing I’ve ever heard of” “Hold m’beer.” ? > [@Broomstick](#): > > Nope, it is not just you. Those two states are infamous for weird and stupid stuff. There’s a couple of others that are not so bad but still full of weird and stupid, too [aside]Speaking of Alabama… **[Alabama Ford dealer’s gun giveaway is back on. Just don’t call it that.](https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2019/06/26/alabama-ford-dealership-offers-bible-shotgun-flag-gifts-with-purchase/?utm_term=.3f1f8de4e3c2)** > [@](#): > > An Alabama Ford dealer ran into corporate head winds with its Fourth of July promotion. So it stopped talking about the free shotgun included in the package deal. > > **The original promotion that Chatom Ford in Chatom, Ala., offered customers was a free King James Bible, an American flag and a 12-gauge shotgun with the purchase of a vehicle.** > > The dealership originally partnered with a local company, Andrews Ace Hardware and Seed Store, and the Athletic Locker in Waynesboro, Miss., for the giveaway. Auto buyers would be handed a gift certificate redeemable at either store to get their firearm, after going through any required background checks; they would receive the Bible and the flag at the dealership. > > “Obviously, we’re not just running around willy-nilly and giving everybody a shotgun,” said Koby Palmer, the dealership’s sales manager. > > The video promoting the giveaway, which was posted June 19 and had been expected to run through July 31, has been deleted. It showed Palmer explaining the deal, then pumping a shotgun. > … My bold. [/aside] Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/46 "2019-06-28T03:38:22Z")
From the CNN article: > [@](#): > > He [police lieutenant Danny Reed] said the fight caused the other woman, Ebony Jemison, to react and defend herself. He would not describe Jones, the pregnant woman, as a shooting victim. > > “The investigation showed that the only true victim in this was the unborn baby,” Reid told [AL.com](http://AL.com). So I guess he doesn’t see Jemison as a victim, either. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 6:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/47 "2019-06-28T06:23:26Z")
This isn’t just an Alabama thing. In my state as well as others this is called “felony murder”. If you are doing something illegal and someone dies as a result, even if you didn’t kill them, even if you didn’t intend for anyone to die, you are still to blame. It appears this woman was attempting to commit a battery. Her actions spurred the other person to defend themselves resulting in her babies death. The charges against her are reasonable. Had the shooter missed and struck someone else she would be guilty of that persons death as well. Had the grand jury found that the shooter was not justified, this may be a different case than it is. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 10:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/48 "2019-06-28T10:33:21Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > This isn’t just an Alabama thing. > > In my state as well as others this is called “felony murder”. If you are doing something illegal and someone dies as a result, even if you didn’t kill them, even if you didn’t intend for anyone to die, you are still to blame. > > It appears this woman was attempting to commit a battery. Her actions spurred the other person to defend themselves resulting in her babies death. The charges against her are reasonable. Had the shooter missed and struck someone else she would be guilty of that persons death as well. > > Had the grand jury found that the shooter was not justified, this may be a different case than it is. **pkbites** , but felony murder requires the killing of another person. Is a fetus really a person in Alabama law? If so, could a cop arrest a pregnant woman for smoking, drinking, or riding a roller coaster, all things that are dangerous to a fetus? I’m sure I could be arrested for giving a one year old wine or cigarettes. If you think a cop could arrest a pregnant woman for doing those things, do you think that’s a reasonable outcome? If not, how does it differ from the current case at hand? Here’s a list of things not to do while pregnant (first Google result): > **[What's off-limits? 11 Things Not to Do While Pregnant](https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/things-not-to-do-while-pregnant)** > > Here’s a list of what not to do while pregnant. Are those now essentially illegal for pregnant women to do, since they put the fetus/person in danger? I’m asking seriously – if a pregnant woman can be indicted because she put her fetus in a situation that caused its death, it seems obvious that any action that is known to put a fetus in real danger would be illegal for pregnant women to do. I don’t know how the law would differentiate between this current case and a woman who decides, fuck it, I’m getting drunk. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Feldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lord_feldon/32/341_2.png) [@Lord\_Feldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Feldon)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/49 "2019-06-28T12:01:55Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Her actions spurred the other person to defend themselves resulting in her babies death. The charges against her are reasonable. It’s reasonable if you think a fetus should be treated as a separate person by criminal law. Otherwise, no, it’s pretty crazy. (IMO criminal law should absolutely never treat a fetus as a separate person, but as a body part. If someone deliberately targets a woman to harm the fetus, make it some kind of hate crime against her, don’t elevate the contents of her body to be her equal.) ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/50 "2019-06-28T13:52:28Z")
There are tales of pregnant women being chastised or outright denied being served a single glass of wine or even a cup of regular coffee in a restaurant. What if it damages the fetus. Wouldn’t that be like a bartender serving someone too many drinks and the drunk killing someone with their car when driving home. I guarantee the day is coming when that happens. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2019, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/51 "2019-06-28T14:33:00Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Do you find that “getting shot” makes a person a victim, regardless of the circumstances? Unless you are getting shot at yourself - yep. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/52 "2019-06-29T01:24:17Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > **pkbites** , but felony murder requires the killing of another person. Is a fetus really a person in Alabama law? If so, could a cop arrest a pregnant woman for smoking, drinking, or riding a roller coaster, all things that are dangerous to a fetus? I’m sure I could be arrested for giving a one year old wine or cigarettes. > > If you think a cop could arrest a pregnant woman for doing those things, do you think that’s a reasonable outcome? > > If not, how does it differ from the current case at hand? > > Here’s a list of things not to do while pregnant (first Google result): > > [Things Not to Do While Pregnant: What to Avoid](https://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/things-not-to-do-while-pregnant) > > Are those now essentially illegal for pregnant women to do, since they put the fetus/person in danger? > > I’m asking seriously – if a pregnant woman can be indicted because she put her fetus in a situation that caused its death, it seems obvious that any action that is known to put a fetus in real danger would be illegal for pregnant women to do. I don’t know how the law would differentiate between this current case and a woman who decides, fuck it, I’m getting drunk. Holy moly. I checked out the link, and I sure as hell hope Kroger’s deli has the cops on speed dial so a pregnant woman buying smoked turkey breast can be thrown in the slammer. (Deli meats can be contaminated with listeria, the site warns, which could cause fetal death.) And what about a woman who doesn’t realize she’s pregnant and takes some medication with teratogenic properties? Shouldn’t she be indicted for negligent homicide because she should have done a home pregnancy test to be _absolutely sure_ she wasn’t pregnant? What about a pregnant woman who runs a red light or enrages her abusive partner (or just stays in the relationship)? We don’t know the details of the altercation, but should Jones have known in advance that Jemison was armed? Is that a reasonable expectation down around Birmingham? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/53 "2019-06-29T03:31:47Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > We don’t know the details of the altercation, but should Jones have known in advance that Jemison was armed? Is that a reasonable expectation down around Birmingham? Sure. Why do you think Birmingham has such a reputation for politeness? ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/54 "2019-06-29T04:59:54Z")
> [@nelliebly](#): > > And what about a woman who doesn’t realize she’s pregnant and takes some medication with teratogenic properties? Shouldn’t she be indicted for negligent homicide because she should have done a home pregnancy test to be _absolutely sure_ she wasn’t pregnant? Back in the 80s and 90s military hospitals routinely gave piss pregnancy tests to sexually active females of reproductive age pretty much any time they went in for anything that might end up requiring imaging or medication, I had numerous ones despite having had my tubes tied because it was required. Actually that was how I discovered I was pregnant 10 years after having my tubes tied - I went in for a routine annual physical and _surprise_ found out I had a unknown pregnancy. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/55 "2019-06-29T07:34:14Z")
> [@aruvqan](#): > > Back in the 80s and 90s military hospitals routinely gave piss pregnancy tests to sexually active females of reproductive age pretty much any time they went in for anything that might end up requiring imaging or medication, I had numerous ones despite having had my tubes tied because it was required. Actually that was how I discovered I was pregnant 10 years after having my tubes tied - I went in for a routine annual physical and _surprise_ found out I had a unknown pregnancy. Wow, that must have been quite a shock. I was thinking more along the lines of, “I think I’m getting strep again. Luckily, I still have this almost-full bottle of antibiotics from last April.” ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/56 "2019-06-29T08:05:16Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sure. Why do you think Birmingham has such a reputation for politeness? Now you’re just screwing with us. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/57 "2019-06-29T08:11:35Z")
Accidental repost. ---
**Author:** ![Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/4af34b/32.png) [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeke_N.Destroi)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/58 "2019-06-29T08:55:30Z")
I’m just curious how many of you stood up and screamed when these fetal protection laws started cropping up; or is it best to wait until the obvious and logically unavoidable consequences descend? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 11:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/59 "2019-06-29T11:54:27Z")
> [@Zeke\_N.Destroi](#): > > I’m just curious how many of you stood up and screamed when these fetal protection laws started cropping up; or is it best to wait until the obvious and logically unavoidable consequences descend? There have been tons of threads about abortion here. The Georgia law (followed closely in time by the Alabama law) spawned a huge thread with these very kinds of hypotheticals in it, with pro-lifers arguing that those kinds of consequences wouldn’t happen, and pro-choicers asking why not? What’s the point of the personhood clauses otherwise? There have been GQ threads about overturning Roe and the consequences – could there be a nationwide ban on abortion? I’ve stated in those threads that if the Supreme Court agrees with these personhood laws and declares that fetuses are people with 14th Amendment and due process rights, then it’s easy to see that leading to a nationwide ban on abortion. There were long threads about the NY law and Virginia bill that takes the government pretty much out of this conversation, avoiding this situation entirely, but pro-lifers claimed those would lead to infanticide, because those pro-lifers are disingenuous lying assholes who take politicians’ quotes out of context and read them in the worst possible way. Sorry, I meant because they are conservative Christians, but I repeat myself. You’ve been around a while. You don’t think this board was howling each time some Republicans pushed forward this kind of anti-woman legislation (many of whom probably paid for their mistress’s abortions)? I’m in NJ – if there were any threat to abortion rights here, you can bet I’d be howling. If Alabama women want to fuck themselves over by voting for paternalistic, hypocritical assholes for their representatives and governor, there’s nothing much I can do about it but complain here and give money to Planned Parenthood. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2019, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136/60 "2019-06-29T13:44:55Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Sure. Why do you think Birmingham has such a reputation for politeness? Wait, this must mean all my Canadian friends are… :eek: …_packing heat_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alabama-woman-indicted-for-the-death-of-her-unborn-child-after-being-shot-by-someone-else/836136.md?page=4)