# Alamo and de la Pena's Account **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [May 11, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065 "2009-05-11T18:12:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/1 "2009-05-11T18:12:05Z")
Cecil writes about the Alamo: [What was the Mexicans’ version of the Alamo attack? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/96/what-was-the-mexicans-version-of-the-alamo-attack) and quotes the diary of Mexican general de la Pena. I don’t have a cite, but I had always heard that this diary was widely believed to be a forgery. Anyone else hear this? ---
**Author:** ![bill.wessels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a698b9/32.png) [@bill.wessels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bill.wessels)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/2 "2009-05-11T18:46:35Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Cecil writes about the Alamo: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/96/what-was-the-mexicans-version-of-the-alamo-attack](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/96/what-was-the-mexicans-version-of-the-alamo-attack) > > and quotes the diary of Mexican general de la Pena. > > I don’t have a cite, but I had always heard that this diary was widely believed to be a forgery. Anyone else hear this? History channel did an excellent program on the de la Pena document. Appears there were two drafts that have caused confusion in the veracity, as well as the ‘discovery’ credibility. The melee Cecil depicts is pretty much what happens in such a fight. Often men will not kill exhausted enemy who are fought out, hence it is very likely seven were captured and summarily executed. The de la Pena document also mentions a group of 25 who broke free from the mission grounds and attempted escape only to be cut down by cavalry. My two cents, the guy who asked this question raises similar interest in the Indians’ history of Custer’s defeat, the Brits history of our revolution and subsequent war of 1812, the Japanese history of WWII, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/3 "2009-05-11T19:01:03Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > Cecil writes about the Alamo: [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/96/what-was-the-mexicans-version-of-the-alamo-attack](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/96/what-was-the-mexicans-version-of-the-alamo-attack) > > and quotes the diary of Mexican general de la Pena. > > I don’t have a cite, but I had always heard that this diary was widely believed to be a forgery. Anyone else hear this? Can you be more specific than “had always heard” and “was widely believed”? Yes, the de la Pena diary is controversial. Here’s _my_ cite–good ole [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Enrique_de_la_Pe%C3%B1a)! > [@](#): > > Some historians, including Bill Groneman, found it suspicious that Garza’s compilation was published in 1955, at the height of interest in Crockett and the Alamo caused by Walt Disney’s television series about Crockett’s life. Groneman also points out that the journals are made up of several different types of paper from several different paper manufacturers, all cut down to fit. Historian Joseph Musso also questions the validity, also basing his suspicians on the timing of the diaries’ release. However, James Crisp, a history professor from North Carolina State University, has studied the papers and is convinced they are genuine. Most of those who dismiss the diary are working from their boyhood memory of “Davy” Crockett, going down at the Alamo while swinging Ol’ Betsy. Hey, Walt Disney wouldn’t lie! Yes, further study is warranted. But kneejerk hero worship is behind most of the doubters. If you accept the diary, David Crockett did nothing dishonorable. And the account says he died bravely–even if a bit later than in other versions. _Texian Illiad: A Military History of the Texas Revolution_ is Stephen Hardin’s fine summary of the war. He accepts de la Pena’s account. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/4 "2009-05-11T19:20:30Z")
[The Second Flying Company of Alamo de Parras](http://www.tamu.edu/ccbn/dewitt/txweb/adp.htm) is an excellent site for more Alamo history. Much of which occurred _before_ That Siege & Battle. I was a kid when Disney showed his version of Crockett’s story. But my first thought on seeing the Alamo was amazement at its age & foreign-ness–right in the middle of a Texas city. Next door to Joske’s & the Menger Hotel. Joske’s is gone but [The Menger](http://mengerhotel.com/) is still in business. And the site has information from both sides. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/5 "2009-05-11T22:56:25Z")
Cecil, Cecil…shame on you. You very obviously did not research what happened at the Alamo worth a damn. Col. William Fairfax Gray was in Washington-on-the-Brazos during the entire Constitutional proceedings. He documented it extensively, including an interview held with Travis’ slave Joe on March 20, 1836. That interview disproves the story of Crockett surrendering. > [@](#): > > Sunday, March 20, 1836 > > This morning Messrs. Zavalla, Ruis and Navarro arrived. The cabinet are now all here, except Hardiman. > > The servant of the late lamented Travis, Joe, a black boy of about twenty-one or twenty-two years of age, is now here. He was in the Alamo when the fatal attack was made. He is the only male, of all who were in the fort, who escaped death,[27] and he, according to his own account, escaped narrowly. I heard him interrogated in presence of the cabinet and others. He related the affair with much modesty, apparent candor, and remarkably distinctly for one of his class. The following is, as near as I can recollect, the substance of it: > > The garrison was much exhausted by incessant watching and hard labor. They had all worked until a late hour on Saturday night, and when the attack was made, sentinels and all were asleep, except one man, Capt. -----, who gave the alarm. There were three picket guards without the fort, but they, too, it is supposed, were asleep, and were run upon and bayonetted, for they gave no alarm. Joe was sleeping in the room with his master when the alarm was given. Travis sprang up, seized his rifle and sword, and called to Joe to follow him. Joe took his gun and followed. Travis ran across the Alamo and mounted the wall, and called out to his men, “Come on, boys, the Mexicans are upon us, and we’ll give them Hell.” He discharged his gun; so did Joe. In an instant Travis was shot down. He fell within the wall, on the sloping ground, and sat up. The enemy twice applied their scaling ladders to the walls, and were twice beaten back. But this Joe did not well understand, for when his master fell he ran and ensconced himself in a house, from which he says he fired on them several times, after they got in. On the third attempt they succeeded in mounting the walls, and then poured over like sheep. The battle then became a melee. Every man fought for his own hand, as he best might, with butts of guns, pistols, knives, etc. As Travis sat wounded on the ground General Mora, who was passing him, made a blow at him with his sword, which Travis struck up, and ran his assailant through the body, and both died on the same spot. This was poor Travis’ last effort. The handful of Americans retreated to such covers as they had, and continued the battle until only one man was left alive, a little, weakly man named Warner, who asked for quarter. He was spared by the soldiery, but on being conducted to Santa Anna, he ordered him to be shot, and it was done. Bowie is said to have fired through the door of his room, from his sick bed. He was found dead and mutilated where he lay. Crockett and a few of his friends were found together, with twenty-four of the enemy dead around them. The Negroes, for there were several Negroes and women in the fort, were spared. Only one woman was killed, and Joe supposes she was shot accidentally, while attempting to cross the Alamo. She was found lying between two guns. The officers came round, after the massacre, and called out to know if there were any Negroes there. Joe stepped out and said, “yes, here is one.” Immediately two soldiers attempted to kill him, one by discharging his piece at him, the other with a thrust of the bayonet. Only one buckshot took effect in his side, not dangerously, and the point of the bayonet scratched him on the other. He was saved by Capt. Baragan. Besides the Negroes, there were in the fort several Mexican women, among them the wife of a Dr. and her sister, Miss Navarro, who were spared and restored to their father, D. Angel Navarro of Bejar.[28] Mrs. Dickenson, wife of Lieut. Dickenson, and child, were also spared, and have been sent back into Texas. After the fight was over, the Mexicans were formed in hollow square, and Santa Anna addressed them in a very animated manner. They filled the air with loud shouts. Joe describes him as a slender man, rather tall, dressed very plainly – somewhat “like a Methodist preacher,” to use the Negro’s own words. Joe was taken into Bejar, and detained several days; was shown a grand review of the army after the battle, which he was told, or supposes, was 8,000 strong. Those acquainted with the ground on which he says they formed think that not more than half that number could form there. Santa Anna questioned Joe about Texas, and the state of its army. Asked if there were many soldiers from the United States in the army, and if more were expected, and said he had men enough to march to the city of Washington. The American dead were collected in a pile and burnt. [http://smu.edu/swcenter/FairfaxGray/wg\_128.htm](http://smu.edu/swcenter/FairfaxGray/wg_128.htm) In addition, Mrs. Dickenson’s testimony confirms Joe’s testimony about Crockett’s death in action: > [@](#): > > "As we passed through the enclosed ground in front of the church, I saw heaps of dead and dying. The Texans on an average killed between eight and nine Mexicans each-182 and 1,600 Mexicans were killed. > "I recognized Col. Crockett lying dead and mutilated between the church and the two story barrack building, and even remember seeing his peculiar cap lying by his side. > "Col. Bowie was sick in bed and not expected to live, but as the victorious Mexicans entered his room, he killed two of them with his pistols before they pierced him through with their sabres. > "Col. Travis and Bonham were killed while working the cannon, the body of the former lay on the top of the church. [http://www.thealamo.org/susanna\_dickinson\_hanning.htm](http://www.thealamo.org/susanna_dickinson_hanning.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Occupied\_North\_Texas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/59ef9b/32.png) [@Occupied\_North\_Texas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occupied_North_Texas)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/6 "2009-05-11T23:51:11Z")
Cecil, has broken my heart. Why did he have to succumb to political correctness on this of all topics? He says that “Indeed, one of the reasons the Texans were so determined to win independence from Mexico in the first place was that the Mexican constitution outlawed slavery, which the Texans favored.” Even if some, most or all of the Alamo defenders favored independence from Mexico (and its dictator) rather than favoring the restoration of the 1824 Mexican constitution, it does not mean that they were motivated by a desire to establish slavery in Texas. To the extent a person’s birthplace may shed some light on the economic forces that shaped the person’s views on slavery, readers should visit [http://www.trishbennett.net/defenders.html](http://www.trishbennett.net/defenders.html) for a list of the birthplaces of the defenders. Besides, is the bravery and sacrifice of the Continental revolutionary soldiers from any less because they fought and died in order to establsh a nation founded on slavery? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/7 "2009-05-12T04:48:29Z")
> [@Occupied\_North\_Texas](#): > > Besides, is the bravery and sacrifice of the Continental revolutionary soldiers from any less because they fought and died in order to establsh a nation founded on slavery? That’s a line of thought that leads to respecting anyone who fights for any cause, no matter how misguided. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/8 "2009-05-12T13:59:24Z")
Please note that this discussion comes up each time the column gets reposted. A simple Google search let’s one read previous threads and hopefully avoid some repetition. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3890637](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=3890637) > **[Alamo Diary Forged? Was Cecil Adams fooled? - Jose Enrique de la Pena](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=249588)** > > In his article on the Alamo, Cecil Adams bases most of his claims on the diary of Jose Enrique de la Pena. I did a bit of searching on the Internet and there seems to be claims that this diary is a fake. So is the diary real or was Cecil Adams... > **[Alamo](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=136901)** > > It’s been (mumble) years since my junior high school Texas History class, so I won’t try to quibble with Cecil’s version of The Alamo, but one assertion certainly took me by surprise: “The Mexican troops, for their part, were poorly paid, ill-fed,... etc. From the Texas Revolution, to Bloody Kansas, to Harper’s Ferry to the Civil War, slavery was _the_ issue that drove nearly all violent conflicts within the US. A lot of people try to put on blinders about this, but you just have to read the documents of the time. As far as Texas, keep in mind that the Texan thinking was: overthrow Santa Ana, restore immigration, bring in more pro-slavery Americans, win. People, then and now, had multi-step plans. Thinking that step 1 was all that was going on is naive. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/9 "2009-05-12T22:30:25Z")
There was another factor. The Americans invited in to Texas had promised to convert to Roman Catholicism. Promising was one thing; actually _doing_ it – well, that was something else. It had only been two years, after all, since a Protestant mob had burned down a convent in Massachusetts. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 9:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/10 "2009-05-13T09:44:09Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > There was another factor. The Americans invited in to Texas had promised to convert to Roman Catholicism. Promising was one thing; actually _doing_ it – well, that was something else. It had only been two years, after all, since a Protestant mob had burned down a convent in Massachusetts. The oath to convert to Catholicism was not heavily enforced. [Father Michael Muldoon,](http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/MM/fmu2.html) born in Ireland & educated in Spain, arrived in Mexico with Juan O’Donoju, the last Spanish viceroy. Mexico broke with Spain but Muldoon remained. The article I cited mentions “Muldoon Catholics”–pretty much in name only. (There’s a tradition that, on occasion, Padre Muldoon was known to take a drink.) A few of the _empresarios_ (agents allowed to bring settlers to Mexican Texas) were Irish Catholics, who brought in (mostly) Catholic settlers. That’s how San Patricio county got its name. There were also many illegal Anglo settlers, crossing the border without any oaths or skills or money. Some of the legal settlers were allowed to bring slaves to Texas by calling them indentured servants. But, according to Mexican law, there could be no legal slave trade; James Fannin, killed in the Goliad Massacre (after the Alamo fell) was a slaver. The Texian desire to own slaves was not the only motive behind the rebellion, but it was more important than the religion thing. [Six Tejanos](http://www.houstonculture.org/hispanic/alamo.html) died at the Alamo. Others helped win independence & survived–but were \*not \*honored by the Anglo majority. ---
**Author:** ![aruvqan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aruvqan/32/2891_2.png) [@aruvqan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aruvqan)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/11 "2009-05-13T12:25:04Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Can you be more specific than “had always heard” and “was widely believed”? Yes, the de la Pena diary is controversial. Here’s _my_ cite–good ole [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jos%C3%A9_Enrique_de_la_Pe%C3%B1a)! > > Some historians, including Bill Groneman, found it suspicious that Garza’s compilation was published in 1955, at the height of interest in Crockett and the Alamo caused by Walt Disney’s television series about Crockett’s life. Groneman also points out that the journals are made up of several different types of paper from several different paper manufacturers, all cut down to fit. Historian Joseph Musso also questions the validity, also basing his suspicians on the timing of the diaries’ release. However, James Crisp, a history professor from North Carolina State University, has studied the papers and is convinced they are genuine. > Most of those who dismiss the diary are working from their boyhood memory of “Davy” Crockett, going down at the Alamo while swinging Ol’ Betsy. Hey, Walt Disney wouldn’t lie! Yes, further study is warranted. But kneejerk hero worship is behind most of the doubters. > > If you accept the diary, David Crockett did nothing dishonorable. And the account says he died bravely–even if a bit later than in other versions. > > _Texian Illiad: A Military History of the Texas Revolution_ is Stephen Hardin’s fine summary of the war. He accepts de la Pena’s account. more a comment on the quote - crap like that _issue_ about the mismatched papers gets under my skin … we are talking not about a book bought in a major brick and mortar modern store, but back in a time when products would be made by entrepeneurs … and people made a living by buying up odd lots of paper and making stuff out of it, and reselling it. People made a living buying old rags, rendering them into fibres and respinning the fibres. This insistance on every piece of paper _must_ come from exactly the same source if it is bound together or it is obviously fake is absurd nonsense. Not everybody could afford to buy their notebooks from Brentano’s in Manhattan, and I really doubt that a soldier would care that his notebook was a ragtag compilation of papers that were available. he just wanted something to write upon. \*yes I know one method of forgery consists of gently removing paper that is blank from actual age appropriate books and rebinding them … but not everything that is a mishmatch of papers is goign to be a forgery. ---
**Author:** ![Occupied\_North\_Texas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/59ef9b/32.png) [@Occupied\_North\_Texas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Occupied_North_Texas)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/12 "2009-05-16T22:55:08Z")
Some posters in the previous threads listed by ftg dispute claims that the Texas revolution was motivated in part or in large part by a desire to maintain or promote slavery. However, none of the previous threads addresses Cecil’s erroneous statement that one of the reasons “the Texans” (i.e., the Alamo defenders, in the context of Cecil’s reply) favored slavery and for that reason “were determined” to win independence from Mexico. As an illustration, in a previous post, Bridget Burke states that 6 Tejanos died at the Alamo. (There were probably more.) Can Cecil be believed when he claims that these Tejanos (as well as all of the other Alamo defenders) were fighting for slavery? This point of Occupied North Texas’ previous post remains valid. On another point. Bridget Burke’s post claims that “other” Tejanos who helped win independence from Mexico have not been honored by the Anglo majority. Of course, the vast majority of persons who helped win independence have not been “honored,” by an Anglo majority or otherwise. However, that poster and others should acquaint themselves with city of Seguin in Texas - named in honor of Juan Seguin, a Tejano Alamo defender who was ordered to leave the Alamo in search of reinforcements before the Alamo fell. And maybe Bridget Burke is also ignorant of Zavala County, Texas, named in honor of Lorenzo de Zavala, a Mexican signer of the Texas Declaration of Independence. There are others, but the point is made. (Navarro County, Texas was named in honor of J. Antonio Navarro, a Texas patriot who was born in San Antonio - but his father was Corsican and this poster don’t know if he qualifies as a “Tejano” - for those who care about such things, you may find some guidance in the German Nuremburg Laws of 1935.) And, Bryan Elkers, simple minds can be led almost anywhere - including to a misquided inference that Occupied North Texas’ post was about respecting anyone. The post mentioned bravery and sacrifice - things that one can respect in a person regardless of respecting other characteristics of the person or the cause for which the person may fight. ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alamo-and-de-la-penas-account/496065/13 "2009-05-17T22:44:43Z")
Not heroic indeed. The defenders bought enough time for Houston to strengthen his army, eventually defeating Santa Anna. Which led to independence and ultimately to statehood. Heroes all. Remember Goliad, remember the Alamo!