# Alan Turing - Posthumous Pardon **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 20, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002 "2013-07-20T02:53:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/1 "2013-07-20T02:53:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Alan Turing, the Enigma codebreaker who took his own life after being convicted of gross indecency under anti-homosexuality legislation, is to be given a posthumous pardon. > > The government signalled on Friday that it is prepared to support a backbench bill that would pardon Turing, who died from cyanide poisoning at the age of 41 in 1954 after he was subjected to "chemical castration.. > **[Enigma codebreaker Alan Turing to be given posthumous pardon](https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/jul/19/enigma-codebreaker-alan-turing-posthumous-pardon)** > > Government indicates support for backbench bill to pardon mathematician who took his own life after indecency case This is very good, I suppose, although I do always wonder about this “pardon” business, when Great Big Official Apology would be better. ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/2 "2013-07-20T04:15:17Z")
Great big bloody lot of no good that does for anyone. They hounded him to his death because he was gay and apparently wasn’t very good at hiding it. “It’s ok, Mr. Turing, almost 60 years later we realize we were utter shits and so we pardon you for breaking this completely indefensible law. What’s that you say? Are we asking for your pardon? Oh, no, that’s not how we roll here in jolly old.” I wish this were the pit, I’d really give them a pleasing stream of the old rancid. Roddy ---
**Author:** ![user\_hostile](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/user_hostile/32/474_2.png) [@user\_hostile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_hostile)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/3 "2013-07-20T04:42:50Z")
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**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/4 "2013-07-20T06:36:11Z")
> [@Celyn](#): > > [Enigma codebreaker Alan Turing to be given posthumous pardon | Alan Turing | The Guardian](http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk-news/2013/jul/19/enigma-codebreaker-alan-turing-posthumous-pardon) > > This is very good, I suppose, although I do always wonder about this “pardon” business, when Great Big Official Apology would be better. The previous PM Gordon Brown did the GBOA several years ago, but David Cameron is obviously on a roll with his ‘be nice to gays’ schtik since SSM was passed. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/5 "2013-07-20T13:24:50Z")
Maybe I am overly cynical, but I am of the opinion that he was murdered because gays were subject to blackmail (never mind that it was their very attitude to gays that left them subject to blackmail) and knew too many secrets. Honestly how many people commit suicide by coating an apple with cyanide and eating the apple? You would just take the cyanide. This makes a hell of a lot more sense than the official explanation. Incidentally, I knew a mathematician who worked during the war at Bletchley Park. To the end of his life (he died a couple years ago) he was forbidden to say anything about his activities there. ---
**Author:** ![Rachellelogram](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rachellelogram/32/8689_2.png) [@Rachellelogram](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachellelogram)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/6 "2013-07-20T13:45:21Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Great big bloody lot of no good that does for anyone. They hounded him to his death because he was gay and apparently wasn’t very good at hiding it. > > “It’s ok, Mr. Turing, almost 60 years later we realize we were utter shits and so we pardon you for breaking this completely indefensible law. What’s that you say? Are we asking for your pardon? Oh, no, that’s not how we roll here in jolly old.” > > I wish this were the pit, I’d really give them a pleasing stream of the old rancid. > Roddy Let’s see, how best to put this… you DO realize the guy is dead, right? The pardon is not for his benefit. It’s for the benefit of people still alive. Gay people–especially young ones–who are being hounded by homophobes will see a gesture like this and maybe it will result in fewer suicides. It’s also an admission (and an apology for the fact) that our society was fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/7 "2013-07-20T14:00:11Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Maybe I am overly cynical, but I am of the opinion that he was murdered because gays were subject to blackmail (never mind that it was their very attitude to gays that left them subject to blackmail) and knew too many secrets. Honestly how many people commit suicide by coating an apple with cyanide and eating the apple? You would just take the cyanide. This makes a hell of a lot more sense than the official explanation. From what I’d read, it was just assumed the apple had the cyanide and it was never tested. Perhaps he just ate some apple to make sure his dose of cyanide stayed down (rather than taking it on an empty stomach and risking puking up enough to not kill him outright), or perhaps (since he was apparently very fond of the Snow White fairytale) he brought in the apple as ‘dramatic license.’ ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/8 "2013-07-20T14:10:07Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Great big bloody lot of no good that does for anyone. They hounded him to his death because he was gay and apparently wasn’t very good at hiding it. > > “It’s ok, Mr. Turing, almost 60 years later we realize we were utter shits and so we pardon you for breaking this completely indefensible law. What’s that you say? Are we asking for your pardon? Oh, no, that’s not how we roll here in jolly old.” > > I wish this were the pit, I’d really give them a pleasing stream of the old rancid. > Roddy The ‘we’ that were responsible for the act are not composed of any of the same people as the ‘we’ of today. I was not a shit to Turing - I wasn’t even born - however, I would like to feel part of some kind of corporate activity that officially recognises that what was done, was shitty, and should never be done again. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2013, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/9 "2013-07-20T21:34:04Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > They hounded him to his death because he was gay and apparently wasn’t very good at hiding it. From what I’ve read, Turing probably could have avoided the worst of the consequences he faced. But he intentionally decided to not ask for any favors from influential people he knew from his wartime work. He felt as a matter of principle that it wouldn’t be right for him to avoid things when other gay men didn’t have the same opportunity. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/10 "2013-07-21T02:01:00Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Maybe I am overly cynical, but I am of the opinion that he was murdered because gays were subject to blackmail (never mind that it was their very attitude to gays that left them subject to blackmail) and knew too many secrets. Honestly how many people commit suicide by coating an apple with cyanide and eating the apple? You would just take the cyanide. This makes a hell of a lot more sense than the official explanation. Turing was a huge fan of Disney’s _Snow White_, and was probably inspired by the poison apple in that film - assuming the cyanide was even in the apple, which as **Ferret Herder** pointed out, is pure conjecture in the first place. As for it being a murder plot, what would be the point? Blackmail relies on information not being made public. Having been convicted, his homosexuality was already a matter of public record. So what blackmail threat could be held over him? Of course, you’ve also got the usual problem with conspiracy theories based on an unusual death - if it was murder and a cover up, why use an unusual method to commit the murder in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/11 "2013-07-21T02:18:12Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > Let’s see, how best to put this… you DO realize the guy is dead, right? The pardon is not for his benefit. It’s for the benefit of people still alive. Gay people–especially young ones–who are being hounded by homophobes will see a gesture like this and maybe it will result in fewer suicides. It’s also an admission (and an apology for the fact) that our society was fucked up. Maybe I am misguided about what a pardon is. It is not exoneration, it is not acknowledgement that the law was wrong. A pardon, at least usually, means “you are guilty, but we are going to waive punishment due to circumstances.” It is an act of clemency, not an act of justice. Maybe the terminology is used differently in Britain. What I would be looking for, if I were one of those young ones being hounded by homophobes, would be an official government apology. That would say to them that not only was Turing’s fate unfair in particular, but that the law was wrong all around, in every case. Turing is only getting a pardon because he was a famous victim. What about all the anonymous ones? Roddy ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/12 "2013-07-21T04:23:25Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Maybe I am overly cynical, but I am of the opinion that he was murdered because gays were subject to blackmail (never mind that it was their very attitude to gays that left them subject to blackmail) and knew too many secrets. Honestly how many people commit suicide by coating an apple with cyanide and eating the apple? You would just take the cyanide. This makes a hell of a lot more sense than the official explanation. > > Incidentally, I knew a mathematician who worked during the war at Bletchley Park. To the end of his life (he died a couple years ago) he was forbidden to say anything about his activities there. The wartime code-breaking might have still been an official secret. But by 1954, it was really a pretty unimportant secret. Germany was obviously no longer an issue and the Soviets didn’t use the Enigma. So information that Britain had cracked the Enigma would have been a historical note not a secret worth killing for. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/13 "2013-07-21T18:37:28Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Maybe I am misguided about what a pardon is. It is not exoneration, it is not acknowledgement that the law was wrong. A pardon, at least usually, means “you are guilty, but we are going to waive punishment due to circumstances.” It is an act of clemency, not an act of justice. Maybe the terminology is used differently in Britain. > > What I would be looking for, if I were one of those young ones being hounded by homophobes, would be an official government apology. That would say to them that not only was Turing’s fate unfair in particular, but that the law was wrong all around, in every case. Turing is only getting a pardon because he was a famous victim. What about all the anonymous ones? > Roddy The law under which Turing was prosecuted has already been repealed (in 1967). ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/14 "2013-07-21T18:59:09Z")
This first came up on the Dope over a year ago [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=641377&highlight=Turing). ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2013, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/15 "2013-07-21T19:04:15Z")
I would like to know if anyone responsible for his conviction is still alive so they can be kicked in their shriveled ballsack for this failure of justice. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/16 "2013-07-22T02:49:48Z")
> [@Rachellelogram](#): > > It’s also an admission (and an apology for the fact) that our society was fucked up. Yip. It’s public, and will likely include a speech about how wrong the whole thing was. That’s above and beyond what most people get after a law is repealed. And, yes, the fact that it was appealed is already an admission that the law was fucked up. A posthumous pardon like this is just making that admission public. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/17 "2013-07-22T09:01:25Z")
[Apparently, Cameron decided he couldn’t let his predecessor have all the good Turing-related press.](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/11/pm-apology-to-alan-turing) (There was also some outrage last year - the centennial of Turing’s birth - over the fact that he didn’t do it, then.) ---
**Author:** ![SanVito](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sanvito/32/2805_2.png) [@SanVito](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SanVito)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/18 "2013-07-22T09:58:24Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > What I would be looking for, if I were one of those young ones being hounded by homophobes, would be an official government apology. That would say to them that not only was Turing’s fate unfair in particular, but that the law was wrong all around, in every case. Turing is only getting a pardon because he was a famous victim. What about all the anonymous ones? > Roddy 'Sigh", people never read my posts (#4). But for the record, again: > [@](#): > > The Guardian, Friday 11 September 2009 > > Gordon Brown issued an unequivocal apology last night on behalf of the government to Alan Turing, the second world war codebreaker who took his own life 55 years ago after being sentenced to chemical castration for being gay. > > Describing Turing’s treatment as “horrifying” and “utterly unfair”, Brown said the country owed the brilliant mathematician a huge debt. He was proud, he said, to offer an official apology. “We’re sorry, you deserved so much better,” Brown writes in a statement posted on the No 10 website. snip > [@](#): > > "Alan and the many thousands of other gay men who were convicted as he was convicted under homophobic laws were treated terribly. Over the years millions more lived in fear of conviction. > > This recognition of Alan’s status as one of Britain’s most famous victims of homophobia is another step towards equality and long overdue. > > But even more than that, Alan deserves recognition for his contribution to humankind … It is thanks to men and women who were totally committed to fighting fascism, people like Alan Turing, that the horrors of the Holocaust and of total war are part of Europe’s history and not Europe’s present. > > So on behalf of the British government, and all those who live freely thanks to Alan’s work I am very proud to say: we’re sorry, you deserved so much better." - Gordon Brown, former PM ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/19 "2013-07-22T12:31:14Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Yip. It’s public, and will likely include a speech about how wrong the whole thing was. That’s above and beyond what most people get after a law is repealed. And, yes, the fact that it was appealed is already an admission that the law was fucked up. A posthumous pardon like this is just making that admission public. Yes - and furthermore, picking Turing as a figurehead for this provides a real-world example of exactly how and why it was all wrong and fucked up - and the bad outcomes that can arise from things being wrong like that. Nothing we can do can make it right - and actually, that’s as it should be - it’s right and proper that we should always be wringing our hands about this past wrong, because that’s one thing that might stop us doing it - or something like it - again. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [July 24, 2013, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002/20 "2013-07-24T22:42:44Z")
> [@SanVito](#): > > David Cameron is obviously on a roll with his ‘be nice to gays’ schtik since SSM was passed. You refer to an equal rights issue as a ‘schtik’ and then wondered why nobody mmentions it? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alan-turing-posthumous-pardon/664002.md?page=2)