# Albert Einstein believed in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623 "2009-01-29T22:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/21 "2009-01-29T23:31:52Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Yes, but despite your screen name, you do not make a practice of opening threads with arguments so specious they smack of either utter disingenuousness or … well, never mind, this isn’t the Pit. Well, see, to me, if this is merely an appeal to authority kind of argument for theism, a call to a ‘higher’ level of support, then it’s a good thing, just in the same way religiously motivated attacks on scientific results are a good thing – because they’re an admission of doubt, and doubt, to my kind of thinking, is the first step towards self-determined intellectual freedom. Why do I think these things to be motivated by doubt? It’s simple, really – the truly faithful would have no need for them. Those who absolutely believe need no backup from whatever luminaries one can dig up and ascribe support to one’s views to; they know to be right in their faith, and no single person’s word or thought would even register on that scale, much less tip it. Similarly, a true believer would not attack a scientific result because it threatens the tenets of his faith, because he would know them to be unshakable, untouchable even, by our petty little machinations; his god would not have to hide in the gaps, but stand in glory so far over our little inconsequential ruminations that the thought of science ever bridging even the most minuscule range into that gap would be nothing but preposterous. So, that’s why I always try to keep an open mind towards these threads, because maybe, sometimes, that doubt at the heart of them does crystallize into true questioning. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [January 29, 2009, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/22 "2009-01-29T23:38:08Z")
Read **Lobohan** ’s links. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/23 "2009-01-30T00:06:35Z")
I think it’s clear that, in the event that Einstein entertained a belief in the existence of a god, it’s very clear that he didn’t believe in “God” - that is, he clearly disbelieved in the Christian god of the bible, or any interventionist god for that matter. So, to virtually everyone discussing the topic, Einstein was atheistic towards your god. (If you have one at all.) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/24 "2009-01-30T00:32:47Z")
> [@Ruminator](#): > > Also, why does any of this Einstein trivia matter at all? Because believers think in terms of dogma handed down by prophets; in terms of declarations by leaders. Not facts or reason. Therefore, they try to tear down or co-opt the “leaders” of science or the “prophets” of atheism, under the assumption that doing so will “prove” their own views to be correct. They have serious difficulty grasping the fact that proving Einstein a theist or Dawkins a monster means nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/25 "2009-01-30T00:34:47Z")
\*\*ITR champion, \*\* what is the source for this Einstein quote? > [@](#): > > "I am not an atheist, nor should I be called a pantheist. It goes against other private letters and thoughts I’ve seen on Einstein’s personal beliefs. I’d like to see more of the surrounding quote as well if you have a cite for it. razncain ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/26 "2009-01-30T00:38:59Z")
I think I see **ITR Champion** ’s confusion, here. He thinks that atheists blindly follow others, as theists do, instead of thinking for themselves. If he can prove that Albert Einstein was secretly a theist, then we’ll be forced to admit to ourselves that we secretly believe in God, as well. That about cover it, **ITR**? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/27 "2009-01-30T00:41:09Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > \*\*ITR champion, \*\* what is the source for this Einstein quote? > > It goes against other private letters and thoughts I’ve seen on Einstein’s personal beliefs. I’d like to see more of the surrounding quote as well if you have a cite for it. > > razncain I’ve contacted the maintenance department, and they are bringing up a comfortable chair for you to sleep in, along with a cot, pillow, & blanket in case you need to stretch out tonight. I’ve also ordered you a couple of pizzas (not sure whether you’re a vegetarian, so I thought I’d play it safe) and a six-pack of root beer. You may be waiting awhile, after all. ---
**Author:** ![DrCube](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/a3d4f5/32.png) [@DrCube](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrCube)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/28 "2009-01-30T00:47:50Z")
[QUOTE=ITR Champion] So, to conclude, Einstein believed in a thinking being who created the universe and established the laws of nature. [/QUOTE] Oh yeah? Well, Jesus was a Jew! Neener neener! ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/29 "2009-01-30T01:01:50Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > \*\*ITR champion, \*\* what is the source for this Einstein quote? I’m not ITR Champion, and I think his form of witnessing is silly beyond belief, but apparently Einstein did say something similar to what he quoted, not that that actually validates the title of this thread in any way shape or form. [QUOTE=Einstein (1930 interview)] I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many different languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn’t know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see a universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws, but only dimly understand these laws. Our limited minds cannot grasp the mysterious force that moves the constellations. I am fascinated by Spinoza’s pantheism, but admire even more his contributions to modern thought because he is the first philosopher to deal with the soul and the body as one, not two separate things. [/QUOTE] Of course, that was 25 years before his death. Hell, 25 years ago, I was a Methodist. Again, not that any of this matters in any way, shape, or form. I admire many things about Einstein, but even if he had been a televangelist on the side, it wouldn’t suddenly make me believe in a god. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/30 "2009-01-30T01:08:29Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > I think I see **ITR Champion** ’s confusion, here. He thinks that atheists blindly follow others, as theists do, instead of thinking for themselves. If he can prove that Albert Einstein was secretly a theist, then we’ll be forced to admit to ourselves that we secretly believe in God, as well. > > That about cover it, **ITR**? Or it could be: “He’s one of ours! See? The smart people are on our side!” ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/31 "2009-01-30T01:22:27Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Or it could be: “He’s one of ours! See? The smart people are on our side!” I believe it’s this particular one. Given his past threads (the Darwin one immediately springs to mind) I suspect he starts from the position that any good things must come from Christianity (and that which comes from Christianity is good), and that bad things must come from any “threats” to Christianity. It’s not enough that Dawkins, Darwin, or evolutionary psychology (to give another example) are wrong; they must be deliberately wrong, or perverse, or evil in some way. Not simply incorrect, but malignant. I, too, would very much like some sources on the various quotes **ITR’s** put out, if possible (especially some context on the first claim of Dawkin’s up there). From my own knowledge, I would have said that Einstein could be said to be at most quite Deistic and at least a “we cannot know” agnostic. ---
**Author:** ![Rigamarole](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/77aa72/32.png) [@Rigamarole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rigamarole)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/32 "2009-01-30T01:27:08Z")
> [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](#): > > Leave _South Park_ out of this. Which episode are you referencing? I don’t think I’ve seen it, and I want to. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/33 "2009-01-30T01:42:17Z")
Einstein clearly, explicitly and repeatedly denied any belief in a personal God (meaning any belief in God as a senient entity) and called it a “lie” that he’d ever expressed otherwise. He did say this: “I believe in Spinoza’s God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings.” Einstein essentially used the word “God” metaphorically, if sometimes vaguely mystically or deistically, but he categorically denied ever using or believing it _theistically_. The OP is out to lunch on this one. Einstein more than once called theistic religions “childish.” Not that it would matter, though. Einstin’s personal beliefs prove absoutely nothing one way or the other. Newton was a genius who was also a religious nutter and believed in alchemy. So what? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/34 "2009-01-30T01:50:04Z")
Newton was no Leibniz. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/35 "2009-01-30T02:00:31Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Newton was no Leibniz. Just going out on a limb – you’ve read Neal Stephenson’s _Baroque Cycle_, haven’t you? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![tim314](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tim314/32/3468_2.png) [@tim314](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tim314)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/36 "2009-01-30T02:02:45Z")
From [Einstein’s wikipedia page](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Religious_views) (see the article for sources): > [@](#): > > In 1929, Einstein told Rabbi Herbert S. Goldstein “I believe in Spinoza’s God, who reveals Himself in the lawful harmony of the world, not in a God Who concerns Himself with the fate and the doings of mankind.”[54] In a 1950 letter to M. Berkowitz, Einstein stated that “ **My position concerning God is that of an agnostic.** I am convinced that a vivid consciousness of the primary importance of moral principles for the betterment and ennoblement of life does not need the idea of a law-giver, especially a law-giver who works on the basis of reward and punishment.”[55] Einstein also stated: “I have repeatedly said that **in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic** , but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious indoctrination received in youth.” He is reported to have said in a conversation with Hubertus, Prince of Löwenstein-Wertheim-Freudenberg, “In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind, am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.”[56] Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: “It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. **I do not believe in a personal god** and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. **If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world** so far as our science can reveal it.”[57] In his book The World as I See It, he wrote: “A knowledge of the existence of something we cannot penetrate, of the manifestations of the profoundest reason and the most radiant beauty, which are only accessible to our reason in their most elementary forms—it is this knowledge and this emotion that constitute the truly religious attitude; in this sense, and in this alone, I am a deeply religious man.”[58] (bolding mine) Basically, Einstein called himself an agnostic but denied that he was an atheist. However, he also said explicitly that he did not believe in a _personal_ God. He did say he believed in “Spinoza’s God” and that he was religious only in the sense of his belief in the profound beauty and structure of the physical world, not in the sense of believing in a God who cares about the fate of mankind. Whether this counts as “believing in God” depends on how you define God, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/37 "2009-01-30T02:13:17Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > So Richard Dawkins insists that Albert Einstein was an atheist and a pantheist. In fact, he says, > So there you have it. In Dawkins’ world, there’s not a single Einstein quote which suggests other than that Einstein was an atheist and a pantheist. > > So then, we might ask, what about this quote: > To me, that quote suggests that Einstein was not an atheist, nor should he be called an pantheist. Of course I may be wrong. It’s possible that I’m just misinterpreting it. Perhaps top scientists have a secret code in which “I am not an atheist” means “I am an atheist.” That’s about the only circumstances in which Dawkins would not be an outright liar. One must also wonder what coded message is contained in this: > And in this:So, to conclude, Einstein believed in a thinking being who created the universe and established the laws of nature. Sounds like a God to me. For those of you who are wondering where the Dawkins quotes come from, they appear to come from here [http://richarddawkins.net/firstChapter,1](http://richarddawkins.net/firstChapter,1) I don’t see anywhere in this discussion that Dawkins has “insisted that Einstein was a pantheist” or that “In Dawkins’ world, there’s not a single Einstein quote which suggests other than that Einstein was an atheist and a pantheist.” The closest Dawkins quote I find is “There is every reason to think that famous Einsteinisms like ‘God is subtle but he is not malicious’ or ‘He does not play dice’ or ‘Did God have a choice in creating the Universe?’ are pantheistic, not deistic, and certainly not theistic.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/38 "2009-01-30T02:36:14Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > Newton was no Leibniz. Liebniz was no Newton. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/39 "2009-01-30T03:07:01Z")
He also said: > [@](#): > > I cannot conceive of a personal God who would directly influence the actions of individuals or would sit in judgment on creatures of his own creation. My religiosity consists of a humble admiration of the infinitely superior spirit that reveals itself in the little that we can comprehend about the knowable world. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/40 "2009-01-30T05:11:51Z")
> [@Huerta88](#): > > … then the OP is not appealing to Einstein’s authority to prove theism, but calling Dawkins out on his own appeal to authority in support of atheism. No, Dawkins wasn’t making an appeal to authority, he was refuting the appeal to authority that Christians always make: cherry picking Einstein’s quotes in an attempt to show that even he, the Great Mind, believed in God. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623.md?page=3)