# Albert Einstein believed in God **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 29, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623 "2009-01-29T22:09:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/121 "2009-01-30T21:17:22Z")
I know there is a distinction. My point is, the vast majority of self-described atheists are the weak atheist sort. If we’re going to make “atheist” a shorthand for either weak or strong atheist, surely we should choose the one that most people are? Use strong atheist or something else if you want to talk specifically of that sort. ETA: Also since strong atheists are actually a subset of weak atheists, it makes little sense to shorthand atheist to the subset. What word would we use for “weak atheist” then? Since we’re going to be using that word more… ETA2: The reason this bugs me is many theists use atheist as a strawman, implying that “weak atheists” are “strong atheists”, saying things like they have just as much faith. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/122 "2009-01-30T21:46:00Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > ETA2: The reason this bugs me is many theists use atheist as a strawman, implying that “weak atheists” are “strong atheists”, saying things like they have just as much faith. Then you’d _love_ [Frank Turek](http://crossexamined.org/index.asp) - he’s built a whole concession on this strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/123 "2009-01-30T21:47:55Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > No, Dawkins wasn’t making an appeal to authority, he was refuting the appeal to authority that Christians always make: cherry picking Einstein’s quotes in an attempt to show that even he, the Great Mind, believed in God. I’m sure there’s an Important Email circulating on this very subject. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/124 "2009-01-30T21:59:20Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > This bit _really_ grates on me. Virtually no one, other than teenagers who haven’t really thought about it much, believes absolutely that there is no God. It’s a very unhelpful definition, as theists use it as a strawman constantly. Very, very annoying. It’s not that they _believe_ there is no god as much as they \*don’t believe \*there is a god. It’s a subtle difference, but it’s important. I have absolutely no reason to believe there’s a god. Give me evidence that can be tested the way everything else in this world is tested, and I might change my mind. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/125 "2009-01-30T22:09:25Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > Nothing in that post is remotely similiar to anything I believe, which is not surprising, given that you made it all up. If you don’t post the reasoning behind your posting of a thread like this, don’t be surprised when people assume you’re doing it to prop up a strawman. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/126 "2009-01-30T22:38:39Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > And the usual dancing area is laid out where strong and weak atheism can be interchanged at will, except when doing so doesn’t serve your purpose. Excuse me, but cite? When have I ever once defined atheism as anything other than how I’m defining it in this thread? I have on occasion drawn the “strong/weak” distinction, but “strong” atheism is a subset of atheism, and I have never defined the whole set of atheism as anything but a lack of belief. To put it another way, a lack of theistic belief, in itself, is sufficient to define somebody as an atheist, and I defy you to find a post where I’ve ever said anything to the contrary. > [@](#): > > Give me a break. And I’ve no need to read the link: IF, as one poster offered, Dawkins or anyone equates Atheism with Agnosticism, he or she is an idiot. Dawkins, I assure you, knows the difference. I think the poster you’re talking about was confusing agnosticism with weak atheism (which a lot of people do). ---
**Author:** ![bonzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/45deac/32.png) [@bonzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bonzer)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/127 "2009-01-30T22:54:50Z")
Various posts have touched on the point I’m going to make. But since I have a copy of Jammer to hand, it is worth spelling it out explicitly. The OP offered the following quotation as Einstein: > [@](#): > > I am not an atheist, nor should I be called a pantheist. When challenged for the cite, **ITR champion** pointed to Max Jammer’s _Einstein and Religion_ as his source for this. However, turning to the quotation there (in the original Princeton University Press hardback edition of 1999, p48), Jammer has the significantly more hesitant wording: > [@](#): > > I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. Which is accurately quoted from his source.[sup]\*[/sup] Given that Dawkins’s main argument, with which the OP seeks to vehimently disagree, is specifically that Einstein is best described as a pantheist, **that’s one hell of a bit of misquoting in the OP**. [sub]\* Brian’s 1996 biography _Einstein: A Life_, in turn quoting Viereck from 1930 (which I haven’t seen). Brian adds a bit more context. Einstein was being asked whether he believed in the God of Spinoza. His answer starts “I can’t answer with a simple yes or no. I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist …” It’s simply perverse to present the interview as providing an unambiguous statement that he was not a pantheist.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Discordia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Discordia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Discordia)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/128 "2009-01-30T23:04:40Z")
> [@Kalhoun](#): > > It’s not that they _believe_ there is no god as much as they \*don’t believe \*there is a god. It’s a subtle difference, but it’s important. I have absolutely no reason to believe there’s a god. Give me evidence that can be tested the way everything else in this world is tested, and I might change my mind. I think you misread my post or something.. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/129 "2009-01-30T23:14:00Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > You can define things however you like, I don’t mind. The only common factor between all self-described atheists, however, is an absence of a belief in a god. Thus, I think that would be the most useful definition. Is there some point in making atheist = strong atheist instead of weak atheist? Divide and conquer; convince the atheists to subdivide themselves into yet smaller minorities. ---
**Author:** ![Andy\_L](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c67d28/32.png) [@Andy\_L](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy_L)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/130 "2009-01-30T23:43:01Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > Various posts have touched on the point I’m going to make. But since I have a copy of Jammer to hand, it is worth spelling it out explicitly. > > The OP offered the following quotation as Einstein: > > When challenged for the cite, **ITR champion** pointed to Max Jammer’s _Einstein and Religion_ as his source for this. > However, turning to the quotation there (in the original Princeton University Press hardback edition of 1999, p48), Jammer has the significantly more hesitant wording: Wow. I thought to check the Dawkins book to see if Dawkins was being misrepresented (which I think he was) - I hadn’t anticipated Einstein being misrepresented as well. ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2009, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/131 "2009-01-30T23:54:57Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > The OP offered the following quotation as Einstein: > > > [@](#): > > > > I am not an atheist, nor should I be called a pantheist. > > When challenged for the cite, **ITR champion** pointed to Max Jammer’s _Einstein and Religion_ as his source for this. > However, turning to the quotation there (in the original Princeton University Press hardback edition of 1999, p48), Jammer has the significantly more hesitant wording: > > > [@](#): > > > > I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist. > > Which is accurately quoted from his source.[sup]\*[/sup] > > Given that Dawkins’s main argument, with which the OP seeks to vehimently disagree, is specifically that Einstein is best described as a pantheist, **that’s one hell of a bit of misquoting in the OP**. > > [sub]\* Brian’s 1996 biography _Einstein: A Life_, in turn quoting Viereck from 1930 (which I haven’t seen). Brian adds a bit more context. Einstein was being asked whether he believed in the God of Spinoza. His answer starts “I can’t answer with a simple yes or no. I’m not an atheist and I don’t think I can call myself a pantheist …” It’s simply perverse to present the interview as providing an unambiguous statement that he was not a pantheist.[/sub] Well, what’s the story, **ITR champion**? Were you paraphrasing from memory? Does your copy say something else? What’s behind your misquote? ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/132 "2009-01-31T00:04:19Z")
Rather than all of us just speculating, why not get the OP to complete the argument and remove all doubt and accusation. Here it is - please could you complete it, **ITR champion**? : **Albert Einsten believed in God, _therefore…_** ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/133 "2009-01-31T00:33:59Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The question is what is meant by “god”? Is it a Creator God, a Prime Mover, or more. Like the Christian interventionist God. By assuming the latter and attacking it unnecessarily you ignore the possibility of the former. If Einstein was a novelist or poet concerned with human feelings, motives, and emotions, I think it would be sensible to talk about God in the Christian sense, as a source of our morality. But he wasn’t a novelist, he was a physicist/cosmologist. It should therefore be assumed that he was talking about a “God’s” role in the cosmos" it’s creation and operation. But i’m not assuming Einstein is talking about some version of the Christian God. I’m assuming _ **ITR** _ is talking about some version of the Christian God. Like I said, it seems very much to me as though Einstein could be construed to have believed in a Deistic god, or some god or force that exerts itself in the universe. In the very post you quoted I was talking about him seeing it more in terms of the effects, the things that are done in the world, than in terms of the potential cause itself (and the ascribing of motivations to it). It seems to me that “god”, when used by Einstein, does seem to describe more of a force of nature rather than a thinking, personified being. Beyond that though, i’m not sure it’s all that fair to assume because of his work he would think of gods purely in those terms. There we have to ask, was he speaking as a physicist/cosomologist, presenting a view in those terms, or was he speaking just as himself, taking everything into account? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/134 "2009-01-31T01:04:05Z")
To me it seems like Einstein fell for the watchmaker fallacy - he saw majesty and complexity in nature and natural law, ergo, it was created. Boom - he’s a pantheist. But he clearly was 100% atheistic towards the Christian god. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/135 "2009-01-31T03:07:56Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But i’m not assuming Einstein is talking about some version of the Christian God. I’m assuming _ **ITR** _ is talking about some version of the Christian God. Like I said, it seems very much to me as though Einstein could be construed to have believed in a Deistic god, or some god or force that exerts itself in the universe. In the very post you quoted I was talking about him seeing it more in terms of the effects, the things that are done in the world, than in terms of the potential cause itself (and the ascribing of motivations to it). It seems to me that “god”, when used by Einstein, does seem to describe more of a force of nature rather than a thinking, personified being. But the OP has none of what you claim. I think it fair to accept the discussion as he has laid it out. If he then tries to pull a fast one in drawing equivalence between the more deistic Creator-God that Einstein was, I think, clearly referring to, then it would be fair to challenge him on it at that time. One thing I find both amusing and annoying in these discussions is when people who do know better confuse the philosophical Theist/Atheist decision with the subsequent decision which MAY then take place concerning religion and flavor of God. The discussion needn’t go there and shouldn’t until some particular religious claim is made. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/136 "2009-01-31T04:29:16Z")
ITR champion wrote: > [@](#): > > However, the likening of his belief to “Spinoza’s God” needs to be revised. If you read the book There is a God by Anthony Flew and Roy Varghese, they discuss this at length. Einstein originally said that he believed what Spinoza believed, but later in life he acknowledged that he’d read very little of Spinoza’s writing, and that he found Spinoza’s God too impersonal and unthinking. Revised by whom, Einstein’s writings, or all on second hand accounts of how someone else interpreted his writings? Another poster wrote: > [@](#): > > Virtually all cosmologists today studying the origins of the universe and dark matter dark energy are atheists. To which you asked for a cite for this. Type in on a google search, “Leading Scientist still reject God” of which 93% are either agnostic are atheist, the majority being in the latter group. Here is [one such cite.](http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/sci_relig.htm) Here’s one pertinent part: > [@](#): > > We found the highest percentage of belief among NAS mathematicians (14.3% in God, 15.0% in immortality). Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), **with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).** Bold type mine. > [@](#): > > Einstein himself never said, “I do not believe in God”, or any words to that effect. He put the word “personal” in there, do you note? Why? Obviously, if he wanted to express a lack of belief in a god, he could have left “personal” out. Since he put it in, he must have believed in a god, or at least left the door open for belief. He did leave it out here, and this has been pointed out many times in this thread. There is no personal in front of it, behind it, or around it. Bold type this time, you need it: \*\* “The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish.”\*\* ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/137 "2009-01-31T09:39:45Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > But the OP has none of what you claim. I think it fair to accept the discussion as he has laid it out. If he then tries to pull a fast one in drawing equivalence between the more deistic Creator-God that Einstein was, I think, clearly referring to, then it would be fair to challenge him on it at that time. One thing I find both amusing and annoying in these discussions is when people who do know better confuse the philosophical Theist/Atheist decision with the subsequent decision which MAY then take place concerning religion and flavor of God. The discussion needn’t go there and shouldn’t until some particular religious claim is made. But the OP does have what I claim, as I pointed out; **ITR** says that it “sounds like a God” to him. Not “sounds like a god”. The big-G is rather more specific a claim that is the small-g generic name. Likewise, in the title, **ITR** does not claim “Einstein believed in a deistic god” or even “Einstein believed in a god”, but “Einstein believed in God”. I’m not sure how much traction this particular argument will make with you, since you yourself appear to use God as a generic term for gods in general, but as far as I have seen it is by far the commonplace standard that “god” could mean any god, while “God” refers specifically to the Christian one, being capitalised. There is, to my eye at least, quite a difference between saying “I believe in a god” and “I believe in God”. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/138 "2009-01-31T12:25:56Z")
> [@ITR\_champion](#): > > I would absolutely agree that Einstein was a deist. He believed in a being who is responsible for the existence and state of the universe. However, the likening of his belief to “Spinoza’s God” needs to be revised. If you read the book _There is a God_ by Anthony Flew and Roy Varghese, they discuss this at length. Einstein originally said that he believed what Spinoza believed, but later in life he acknowledged that he’d read very little of Spinoza’s writing, and that he found Spinoza’s God too impersonal and unthinking. > You obviously think that it matters, since you opened the thread and are posting in it. > I’d be interested in seeing a cite for this. I do not believe Einstein was a diest, he seemed to believe the word God to be what ever is, not a ‘being’ but being. At least that was the impression I got when I heard him speak once. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/139 "2009-01-31T12:45:16Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I do not believe Einstein was a diest, he seemed to believe the word God to be what ever is, not a ‘being’ but being. At least that was the impression I got when I heard him speak once. > > Monavis Sorry, I meant deist! ---
**Author:** ![Sandwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/22d042/32.png) [@Sandwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandwich)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2009, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623/140 "2009-01-31T20:09:09Z")
> [@Discordia](#): > > This bit _really_ grates on me. Virtually no one, other than teenagers who haven’t really thought about it much, believes absolutely that there is no God. It’s a very unhelpful definition, as theists use it as a strawman constantly. Very, very annoying. Me, me! I’m long past being a teenager. I know that there are no gods. (Note grammar - plural nor a common noun. Not singular and a proper noun.) And I’ve given much more thought to this delusion than it deserves. Because any phenomenon which is close to being a credible feature of any model of reality which I would be willing to accept, I would describe as ‘not a god’. Magic fairies don’t exist, they are fictional. Forces like gravity (or even the Lord Gravity if you like) are not gods. YMMV. By the way, you know that outside the USA this discussion was settled long ago? Everyone with any sense or education became an atheist or agreed to act as if they were one. Okay, not quite everyone - the Pope still acts as though he believes in god. Conversely, it is considered rude to press an Anglican priest too closely on his precise beliefs. Don’t ask, don’t tell is the principle. Actually, I’m just joshing with you. I know that gods exist. I’ve seen dozens of them. Carved in wood and stone and metal, in [alcoves](http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=IKBA_wxv9RY) and on plinths. Dozens of them. Apparently some of them are abstract with no physical incarnation. Pray to them if it comforts you. They aren’t listening. Because they’re just carvings. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/albert-einstein-believed-in-god/483623.md?page=8)