# Alcohol Powered car....?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 9, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419 "2006-12-09T00:27:37Z")
**Posts on this page:** 10
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@Tristan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tristan)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/1 "2006-12-09T00:27:37Z")
How feasible would it be to have a car fully powered by alcohol?
I know that one of the big stumbling blocks to the Hydrogen car idea is the lack of infranstructure.
But if we switched over to an alcohol system, much of the existing infrastructure could be used.
But is it possible to make a car that burns, essentially, moonshine or vodka?
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/2 "2006-12-09T00:31:13Z")
[Sure. Race cars already do it.](http://www.methanol.org/altfuel/press/pr970521.html)
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### Author:  [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/3 "2006-12-09T00:32:38Z")
[Here are production ethanol (drinking alcohol) powered cars as well.](http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_id=21101)
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### Author:  [@bouv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bouv)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/4 "2006-12-09T01:24:05Z")
It can be done, however, it won’t solve the energy crisis. You still need to spend more energy to make and transport the ethanol than you’ll ever get out of it. Until it’s made using 100% renewable means (wind, solar, etc…) then it’s not going to be any kind of fix.
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### Author:  [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/5 "2006-12-09T01:31:09Z")
Additionally, cars can be [converted to run on ethanol](http://www.e85fuel.com/e85101/faqs/conversion.php) , but emissions certification becomes a major problem. From a technical standpoint, you just pretty much just have to change the timing and fuel/air settings for an engine, and then make sure all of parts in the fuel system play nicely with ethanol. I.e., you can’t have seals that absorb the ethanol and eventually fail.
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### Author:  [@TheLoadedDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TheLoadedDog)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/6 "2006-12-09T01:38:06Z")
I can’t think of this topic without getting a picture of the _Simpsons_ treatment of it: Homer at the ethanol bowser alternating the nozzle between the fuel tank and his mouth: “One for you and one for me…”
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### Author:  [@Diceman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diceman)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/7 "2006-12-09T03:53:21Z")
Technically, a big hurdle is that alcohol-powered cars are very hard to start in cold weather. This is why they’re selling E85 (85% ethanol, 15% gasoline) for use in “flex-fuel” vehicles. The gasoline makes sure that you can actually start the thing in the middle of winter.
As for making ethanol efficiently, there are some people who think that switchgrass might be much better suited for ethanol production than corn is.
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### Author:  [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/8 "2006-12-09T04:17:29Z")
How about [direct ethanol fuel cells](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct-ethanol_fuel_cell)? Ethanol in, electricity out.
[QUOTE=bouv]
It can be done, however, it won’t solve the energy crisis. You still need to spend more energy to make and transport the ethanol than you’ll ever get out of it.
[/QUOTE]
[Not any more:](http://www1.eere.energy.gov/biomass/net_energy_balance.html)
> [@](#):
>
> The most official study of the issue, which also reviews other studies, concludes that the “net energy balance” of making fuel ethanol from corn grain is 1.34; that is, for every unit of energy that goes into growing corn and turning it into ethanol, we get back about one-third more energy as automotive fuel. That may not sound impressive, but bear in mind that while the gasoline that ethanol displaces is largely imported and a high-level pollution source, the mix of energy inputs for producing bioethanol includes much domestic and relatively cleaner energy. On the basis of liquid fuels alone, the net balance is 6.34 (USDA Office of Energy Policy and New Uses, The Energy Balance of Corn Ethanol: An Update).
>
> A public interest environmental organization study (Institute for Local Self Reliance), 1995 shows how much net energy balance can improve. Calculating the current balance at 1.38, it goes on to calculate a ratio of 2.09, if you base it on corn grown in the most efficient farming state and ethanol produced in the most efficient existing facilities. That is, if the industry averages move to the current industry bests, as you would expect them to tend toward, there would be more than twice as much energy in the fuel ethanol as went into making it.
> [@](#):
>
> One of the most persistent critics of fuel ethanol [David Pimentel, Cornell University, (see for example Journal of Agricultural and Environmental Ethics, vol. 4, no. 1, pp. 1-13. 1991.)] asserts that it takes about 70% more energy to grow corn and make ethanol from it than goes into the ethanol. Among other things, however, his analysis is based on old data and does not give any credit for the energy value of the animal feed co-product of making ethanol (both dry-mill- and wet-mill-ethanol plants produce high-protein animal feeds as a major co-product, a key economic element of the production processes). The use of old data is significant because the modern ethanol industry is only about 20 years old and plants today are far more efficient than the first ones built. Productivity of corn production has also increased dramatically.
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### Author:  [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/9 "2006-12-09T13:16:12Z")
Ok, even if alcohol production does give back more energy than it takes to produce it, where are you going to grow all these additional crops? I find it difficult to imagine that there is so much arable land just sitting around in the world. Isn’t it already being used to grow food?
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### Author:  [@Gymnopithys](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gymnopithys)
#### Post date: [December 9, 2006, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcohol-powered-car/383419/10 "2006-12-09T16:26:57Z")
[QUOTE=Cardinal]
Ok, even if alcohol production does give back more energy than it takes to produce it, where are you going to grow all these additional crops? I find it difficult to imagine that there is so much arable land just sitting around in the world. Isn’t it already being used to grow food?
[/QUOTE]
Just destroy the Amazonian forest and replace it with sugar cane. That’s what they are doing right now. :mad: