# Alcoholics Anonymous and Religion

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [August 18, 2001, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950 "2001-08-18T23:35:32Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 7\
**Page:** 4

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**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950/61 "2001-08-22T16:50:07Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ENugent \*  
> \*\ ***CatBiker** , are you being intentionally obtuse?
> 
> The _Warner_ decision is binding in the 2d Circuit (the New York-Pennsylvania area), and advisory elsewhere. The Supreme Court had the opportunity to overturn the decision and elected not to hear the case (528 U.S. 1003, 120 S. Ct. 495 (1999)), a fact that courts elsewhere will take into account. As a legal matter, the statement that AA is a religious group within the meaning of the 1st Amendment is adequately supported by case law and cites have been provided to that effect. It’s not just because **MEBuckner** and **Sexywriter** said so. \*\*

Not intentionally. 😉

So, in the New York/Penn area not one court sends not even one person to AA, CA, NA? Cool.

I hear people **say** different that go to meetings there but hey, they are non drinking drunks so what do they know. ← sarcasm

Why do people not read what I said? I don’t think they should be sent there either. ← See, I agree…

Use any grounds you want to get them (the courts) to quit. Cool.

Why do they, (the courts) keep doing it? Is a ‘no brainer’ to most of the people posting to this thread. So this makes the judges stupid? {Oop’s, withdraw that statement thankyouverymuch }

So, in court, the judge says, “Here is a list of places you can go for x number of meetings instead of to jail, please pick one.” Probably not going to happen IMO.

Be happy,  
If you can’t be happy  
At least try to be good.  
If that doesn’t fly,  
Be careful;  
And if that  
Is not for you,  
Please be sanitary! ← {it is a joke ya know – sorta ;)}

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**Author:** ![The\_Ryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7feea3/32.png) [@The\_Ryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Ryan)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950/62 "2001-08-22T16:57:50Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by spooje \*  
> \*\*
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > \*Originally posted by The Ryan \*  
> > I understand that for some people, alcohol causes significant changes in body chemistery. What I do not understand is how those changes eliminate free will.
> > 
> > \*\*
> 
> You’ve heard the word ‘compulsion’, right? There are many compulsive disorders that do not involve chemical substanses. Well, it’s similar to those.

Except that those compulsive behaviors that don’t involve chemical substances because, well, they don’t involve chemical substances (at least not external ones). There’s a big difference between a compulsion to straighten your hair and a compulsion to do down to the store, buy some alcohol, go home, drink the alcohol, and get drunk. The former can be done wihtout conscious thought. The latter cannot; it requires a deliberate effort of will. Unless the alchoholic somehow simply cannot avopid being in a situation where he is surrounded by alcohol, there’s a big difference between the two cases.

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**Author:** ![ENugent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/4af34b/32.png) [@ENugent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ENugent)\
**Post date:** [August 22, 2001, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950/63 "2001-08-22T18:25:04Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by CatBiker \*  
> So, in the New York/Penn area not one court sends not even one person to AA, CA, NA? Cool.

Well, not properly, anyway. If someone challenged it on appeal, they’d win. But I don’t doubt that there are judges out there who don’t know the law on this.

> [@](#):
>
> So, in court, the judge says, “Here is a list of places you can go for x number of meetings instead of to jail, please pick one.” Probably not going to happen IMO.

Why not? In fact, in cases other than _Warner_ where the judge did give a choice of treatment programs, his decision was upheld (see the article I linked earlier).

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**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950/64 "2001-08-23T04:30:52Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> Why not? In fact, in cases other than Warner where the judge did give a choice of treatment programs, his decision was upheld (see the article I linked earlier).\<— ENugent

And if AA was the only thing in that area, the defendant just goes to jail, gets a free pass? Oh, there is always several treatment programs and facilities handy in all places.  
That’s the of the troubles with passing laws instead of using common sense. Somebody always loses. Well, the world is round… I don’t have a perfect answer and I don’t think you do either but it is fun to try to come up with an answer instead of just tearing things down without having an alternitive workable idea waiting in the wings isn’t it?

See ya tomorrow. 😉

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**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950/65 "2001-08-23T07:17:47Z")

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“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances; unless it is judged expedient to do any of these things.”

There you go. Just a little “common sense” is all!

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**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950/66 "2001-08-23T07:22:31Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by The Ryan \*  
> \*\*There’s a big difference between a compulsion to straighten your hair and a compulsion to do down to the store, buy some alcohol, go home, drink the alcohol, and get drunk. The former can be done wihtout conscious thought. The latter cannot; it requires a deliberate effort of will. \*\*

Those who compulsivly wash their hands, count things, lock doors over and over, they do so without thought? Are they unaware that they do it?

I have to disagree.

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**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\
**Post date:** [August 23, 2001, 7:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alcoholics-anonymous-and-religion/76950/67 "2001-08-23T07:25:42Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by ENugent \*  
> _No one here_ wants to stamp out AA.

Actually, at least 2 posters seem to want that.

> [@](#):
>
> Several of us think it is inappropriate for AA to be a _mandatory_ part of a court sentence.

I couldn’t agree more.

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