# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 100
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2023, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1989 "2023-01-20T14:38:57Z")
> [@Skypist](#): > > [https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/19/us/santa-fe-alec-baldwin-rust-charged/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/01/19/us/santa-fe-alec-baldwin-rust-charged/index.html) From the article,… > [@](#): > > “He was the actor that pulled the trigger so certainly he’s charged as an actor but also as a producer,” Carmack-Altwies said. > > “He also had a duty to make sure that the set was safe and we know from our investigation that there had been accidental misfires prior to this.” Aha! As I suspected, Baldwin is being charged not just because he was holding the gun at the time, but because he was a producer on the movie and was (partially) responsible for the loose-safety on the set. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > In principle, I am fine with the idea that firearm owners or operators should be held to a more exacting standard for their incompetence given how inherently deadly a mishandled firearm can be, even if lawfully obtained and possessed. I was trying to come up with some scenario where it fit with the dictionary definition of “manslaughter”, and really commenting on the “manslaughter” vs. “manslaughter during a legal act”. If they wanted extra severity if a gun is involved, then it should be “manslaughter during a legal act with a firearm”. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2023, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1990 "2023-01-20T14:42:03Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Dumb question here. But in movies where people are shooting guns at other people, are the guns aimed at the targets? Or is it a rule that they should be aimed slightly left or right of the target? Think of it this way: Have you ever seen a scene where a gun is pointed at the camera? Unless the camera is unmanned, that scene involved pointing a gun at whoever was operating the camera. Just a quick example would be the intro to most or all James Bond films. Googling turned up a discussion from 2010 listing examples: > **[Films featuring shots with a gun pointed directly at the screen?](https://ask.metafilter.com/153689/Films-featuring-shots-with-a-gun-pointed-directly-at-the-screen)** > > This question is for cinephiles: A filmmaker friend of mine is putting together a montage of film clips featuring shots or scenes where a gun is pointed directly at the screen. One example that... ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2023, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1991 "2023-01-20T14:59:11Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > I was trying to come up with some scenario where it fit with the dictionary definition of “manslaughter”, and really commenting on the “manslaughter” vs. “manslaughter during a legal act”. But you seem to rule out manslaughter during an illegal act” in that. Because to be clear, not all deaths resulting negligently from illegal acts will be murder. Point is, there are doubtless other legal acts that could result in death through negligence, so the law doesn’t _only_ cover deaths that must necessarily involve firearms. Hence the enhancement being invoked _where there is a firearm_ above and beyond the punishment for similarly legal acts resulting in death through negligence that _don’t involve firearms_. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2023, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1992 "2023-01-20T15:08:03Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > As I suspected, Baldwin is being charged not just because he was holding the gun at the time, but because he was a producer on the movie and was (partially) responsible for the loose-safety on the set. It seems quite reasonable for him to be charged as a producer. Does this imply that the D.A. is less clueless? I’m not sure how these things usually go - if the fundamental plan is to prosecute him as a producer, would it be normal practice to tack on any aspect you might _conceivably_ get him for at this stage, just so you haven’t ruled it out if more facts come to light, or to give you more leverage in a plea bargain? Or does it weaken your position as a prosecutor if you are less focused? ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [January 20, 2023, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1993 "2023-01-20T23:05:48Z")
> [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](#): > > Aha! As I suspected, Baldwin is being charged not just because he was holding the gun at the time, but because he was a producer on the movie and was (partially) responsible for the loose-safety on the set. If that’s so, what about the other 10+ producers on the film? Why no charges against any of them? I think he was charged because he was the shooter and he was famous. Does anyone remember the name of the actor that shot Brandon Lee was? Or what he was charged with? That’s the last shooting related death I recall from a movie. Bolding is mine. > After an investigation, District Attorney Jerry Spivey said no criminal charges would be filed ( **against Michael Massee** ) over Lee’s death because while negligence was a factor, there was no evidence of criminal wrongdoing, the Times reported in 1993. I think this DA wanted a higher profile and an extra $300,000 to throw around. I’d like to know what that was spent on. Almost a year and a half investigating and this is the best she can do? Especially since some of the news stories say they knew almost immediately that Baldwin would be charged with negligent homicide. Does anyone know what the plea deal was for Dave Halls, the AD who declared the gun “cold” before handing it off to Baldwin? This was the first I remember hearing about that. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1994 "2023-01-21T00:35:05Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > If that’s so, what about the other 10+ producers on the film? Why no charges against any of them? Possibly because none the others shot anybody dead? I don’t know how the trial will play out but a plea deal sounds quicker/cheaper. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1995 "2023-01-21T00:39:33Z")
They still have to have the equivalent of a grand jury to see if there is a threat of trial. Except instead of a grand jury it will be a judge deciding. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1996 "2023-01-21T00:54:50Z")
> [@Folly](#): > > Except instead of a grand jury it will be a judge deciding. It would be _very_ unusual for a judge to prevent the prosecution at this stage. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1997 "2023-01-21T01:18:15Z")
I’ll take your word for it, not my area. But there certainly won’t be any plea deals before then. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1998 "2023-01-21T03:22:08Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Does anyone know what the plea deal was for Dave Halls, the AD who declared the gun “cold” before handing it off to Baldwin? This was the first I remember hearing about that. He pleaded guilty to Negligent Use of a Deadly Weapon – Applicable NM law: > **[2011 New Mexico Statutes :: Chapter 30: Criminal Offenses :: Article 7:...](https://law.justia.com/codes/new-mexico/2011/chapter30/article7/section30-7-4)** I am presuming under this part of the definition: > A. Negligent use of a deadly weapon consists of: > (…) > (3) endangering the safety of another by handling or using a firearm or other deadly weapon in a negligent manner; or > (…) > Whoever commits negligent use of a deadly weapon is guilty of a petty misdemeanor. As to the possible penalty: > 31-19-1. Sentencing authority[;] misdemeanors; imprisonment and fines; probation. > A. (…) > B. Where the defendant has been convicted of a crime constituting a petty misdemeanor, the judge shall sentence the person to be imprisoned in the county jail for a definite term not to exceed six months or to the payment of a fine of not more than five hundred dollars ($500) or to both such imprisonment and fine in the discretion of the judge. > > C. When the court has deferred or suspended sentence, it shall order the defendant placed on supervised or unsupervised probation for all or some portion of the period of deferment or suspension. ISTM he pleaded to what he could to avoid a felony charge. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1999 "2023-01-21T06:33:02Z")
Baldwin’s lawyers will probably look for some kind of deal with lowered charges. Baldwin could agee to a statement that he didn’t give orders for staff to properly investigate the earlier safety incidents. Gutierrez-Reed was too inexperienced and Baldwin should have insisted production bring in more help. The DA wants him to accept responsibility. John Wayne made pictures through Batjac. I bet he would have personally cussed out people for gun safety violations and demanded changes. He was pretty hands on. His mentor was John Ford and he was known as a terror on set. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2000 "2023-01-21T08:07:52Z")
Something of an aside, I remember reading that Chuck Conners and Paul fix took extra care to teach gun safety to the young actor Johnny Crawford during the filming of the Rifleman. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2001 "2023-01-21T11:14:50Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Possibly because none the others shot anybody dead? I was commenting on the statement that he was charged because of his producer status making him responsible for set safety. If that’s true, every other producer should have been charged with negligence also. I believe Baldwin’s producer status was just another way to boost his payday. He had no money invested in the film and I doubt he did any producer function at all. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > He pleaded guilty to Negligent Use of a Deadly Weapon Man, did he get a deal. Six months in jail OR $500 fine. This is the guy that took the gun off the prop cart without checking it’s status with the armorer. He then didn’t check it himself, just handed it to Baldwin and told him it was a “cold gun.” He was the one that actually brought the live round on the set and told Baldwin everything was set to go. > [@aceplace57](#): > > Baldwin’s lawyers will probably look for some kind of deal with lowered charges. Up to him, of course, but I think it he could win at trial. He could parade dozens of famous actors thru that will testify about how actors have no knowledge of guns and just take the word of the experts on whether a gun is safe. I’d guess whatever gun safety classes given are minimal and do not deal with live rounds. I also highly doubt that armorers show ADs that each individual round is safe by taking them out of the gun and shaking them so you can hear the BBs in them. I doubly doubt that the AD then does the same in front of the actor. I also think he could bring a bunch of “producers” in that would testify that they have no power over what happens on set, don’t know what happens on set, and the producer tag is just about getting them some extra money. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2002 "2023-01-21T12:07:10Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Up to him, of course, but I think it he could win at trial. From the analyses I’ve seen, the prosecutors’ case is terrible. A muddled argument on why Baldwin is responsible\*, conceding that other people in the chain may at least be partly culpable, and rhetorical talk of “Hollywood elites”. I haven’t heard anyone that has gone into the detail of the charges that thinks their case has merit. I’d still consider going to trial as a roll of the dice though. \* e.g. Saying you’re charging him for _both_ his role as actor and producer might sound reasonable but AIUI, in legal arguments it’s much preferred to have a single, clear argument. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2003 "2023-01-21T12:27:06Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But there ARE real guns around actors, which is why they get training. > Here’s what the Screen Actor’s Guild has to say about it (already posted in this thread) Here’s what the Screen Actor’s Guild has commented about Baldwin being charged: > [@SAG-AFTRA](#): > > The prosecutor’s contention that an actor has a duty to ensure the functional and mechanical operation of a firearm on a production set is wrong and uninformed. An actor’s job is not to be a firearms or weapons expert. Firearms are provided for their use under the guidance of multiple expert professionals directly responsible for the safe and accurate operation of that firearm. In addition, the employer is always responsible for providing a safe work environment at all times, including hiring and supervising the work of professionals trained in weapons. I don’t know how to resolve the inconsistency between this and their 2009 bulletin that you quoted. But I think the bulletin might have been more describing the ideal case than implying liability. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2004 "2023-01-21T13:08:25Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Man, did he get a deal. Six months in jail OR $500 fine. This is the guy that took the gun off the prop cart without checking it’s status with the armorer. He then didn’t check it himself, just handed it to Baldwin and told him it was a “cold gun.” He was the one that actually brought the live round on the set and told Baldwin everything was set to go. Yeah, well, maybe his lawyers said “Dude, take this deal or you’ll get hammered in an actual trial, pay the $500, and be done with it”. In which case he acted smart and in his own self-interests. And his lawyer(s) earned the paycheck. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2005 "2023-01-21T15:17:24Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Up to him, of course, but I think it he could win at trial. He could parade dozens of famous actors thru that will testify about how actors have no knowledge of guns and just take the word of the experts on whether a gun is safe. This could just as easily backfire if a jury of everyday New Mexicans feels like they’re being lectured to by a bunch of rich Hollywood assholes. Safer to cut a deal. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2006 "2023-01-21T16:08:13Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > This is the guy that took the gun off the prop cart without checking it’s status with the armorer. He then didn’t check it himself, just handed it to Baldwin and told him it was a “cold gun.” He was the one that actually brought the live round on the set and told Baldwin everything was set to go. I do expect that this will result in some bills in the NM and various other state assemblies to specify that in the future “mere” negligent use cases such as what the AD copped to here, are not so “mere” and merit an added penalty. > [@Mijin](#): > > > [@mordecaiB](#): > > > > Up to him, of course, but I think it he could win at trial. > > From the analyses I’ve seen, the prosecutors’ case is terrible. > > A muddled argument on why Baldwin is responsible\*, conceding that other people in the chain may at least be partly culpable, and rhetorical talk of “Hollywood elites”. One doesn’t want to have to think of it this way, but… I could see a prosecutor being political and thinking, this way we can just point and say to everyone, see, we ARE charging the Big (Liberal) Star with a crime and taking him to trial (they already wouldn’t be able to avoid attacks from the Right that he should have been charged with worse, or that she should have done _anything_ to find him guilty), we are not privileging him, and if he skates it’s because he had slick expensive lawyers or the jury could not agree, hate _them_, it’s no longer our problem. If she said up front, look, it was an accident, at most I can levy a $500 fine (as with the AD), everyone would be on fire. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2007 "2023-01-21T16:39:54Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Up to him, of course, but I think it he could win at trial. He could parade dozens of famous actors thru that will testify about how actors have no knowledge of guns and just take the word of the experts on whether a gun is safe. There are already some well known actors who say the exact opposite - that they educated themselves about guns and use their knowledge to make sure they guns they’re handed on set are safe and they know what’s in them. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2023, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2008 "2023-01-21T16:46:09Z")
I’m not a rabid fan of Alec Baldwin. I never followed him in entertainment news, but what little I’ve seen of him, he struck me as somewhat boorish and perhaps even antagonistic at times. But, IMO, Baldwin is guilty of no crime (misdemeanor or criminal) regarding the death of Halyna Hutchins. It was an accident pure and simply. An accident that any number of actors or non-actors may have succumbed to in the same circumstance, even me. If any negligence was involved in Baldwin’s actions, it was minor and unintended. He clearly showed remorse for his actions, immediately after she was shot and thereafter. I believe Hutchin’s death affected him deeply. He may be boorish, but he appears to have a heart. Does Baldwin bear more culpability as a producer on the film? I don’t know, perhaps. Someone (s) were certainly morbidly negligent somewhere along the line. I believe someone should be held criminally accountable for Hutchin’s death, I just don’t believe that person (s) should be Alec Baldwin. I believe the prosecutor is grandstanding. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=99) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=101)