# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/203 "2021-10-22T17:56:04Z")
I have a number of friends on social media in the entertainment industry, most of whom are behind the scenes, and without exception they and their colleagues think that the armorer fucked up with the slight possibility of the gun malfunctioning somehow. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/204 "2021-10-22T18:14:21Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > > [@pkbites](#): > > > > Prop guns still have a small hole at the end of the barrel to release gases upon discharge. > > Automatics do. Revolvers don’t. Not true, one of the prop guns I own is a revolver and it has a small hole that is recessed in the barrel. This gives the effect when it is fired of a small amount of smoke billowing out the end of the barrel. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/205 "2021-10-22T18:23:16Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Not true, one of the prop guns I own is a revolver and it has a small hole that is recessed in the barrel. This gives the effect when it is fired of a small amount of smoke billowing out the end of the barrel. Makes sense from a practical effects view. I thought the reason for the choking of a semi-auto was that otherwise the blank wouldn’t cause enough gas pressure to cycle the action. Which of course isn’t the case with a revolver. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/206 "2021-10-22T18:31:53Z")
> [@Asuka](#): > > I’m seeing people on Twitter **DEMAND** they stop using “real” guns in films but that seems like a really knee-jerk reaction to a freak accident that happens so rarely the last time this happened was in the 90’s. If they need to use something that looks real then, IMO, it should be modified so that: - It won’t receive standard ammunition - It’s not capable of discharging any type of projectile If they need something that makes a little noise so people can react to it that’s easy to deal with. It doesn’t have to be .357 Magnum loud. They can add the sound in later. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/207 "2021-10-22T18:36:24Z")
Or instead of guns, they can use walkie-talkies. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/208 "2021-10-22T18:41:51Z")
Hm, is it possible to create a prop gun with realistic recoil that doesn’t fire anything? I can imagine it’d be expensive, but doable. Maybe insurance companies can force studios’ hand and make them come up with something like that. ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/209 "2021-10-22T18:47:13Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > If they need to use something that looks real then, IMO, it should be modified so that: > > - It won’t receive standard ammunition > - It’s not capable of discharging any type of projectile But that’s how mine are. With only 1 exception they fire 8mm and 9mm PAK ammo and can’t be chambered with live ammo. But there still needs to be at least a small hole or vent to release gas and for a semi-auto to cycle. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/210 "2021-10-22T18:58:38Z")
> **[Prop Gun Specialist Calls Alec Baldwin 'Very Safe'](https://www.newsweek.com/prop-gun-specialist-calls-alec-baldwin-very-safe-says-props-dept-likely-blame-1641627)** > > A film set weapons expert who has worked with Baldwin before said the actor is very cautious and someone else is likely at fault for Thursday's tragic shooting. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/211 "2021-10-22T19:07:53Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > One person shot accidentally I can see, but how do you shoot two accidentally? Best I can figure is it was a camera angle where he was shooting at the camera, showing it front-on, the bullet or whatever the projectile was hit the person behind the camera, went through her and hit the director. This seems likely. I’m picturing it as Halyna Hutchins either operating the camera herself or standing next to the camera operator, and then director Joel Souza seated behind her. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/212 "2021-10-22T19:08:38Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Let’s get some facts on the table before everybody runs ahead of the story and latches onto a misinterpreted version of reality. > > Industry coverage indicates that this happened during a _rehearsal._ Not during the filming of an actual scene. A _rehearsal._ > > There is a person on a film set called an armorer whose job it is to manage the firearms. He (it’s usually a he) is responsible for preparing the weapons, keeping them secured on set, formally checking them out to each actor, observing the actor’s handling for safe practices, loading the weapon prior to filming, and checking the weapon back in when filming is complete. > > The weapon is _never_ supposed to be loaded during the rehearsal. Baldwin has been working with prop weapons for 40 years. This has always been the rule. If the armorer handed him a weapon for the rehearsal, Baldwin will have had no expectation that it should be loaded or unsafe in any way. If it was loaded, its discharge is 100% the responsibility of the armorer. > > It’s fine if you feel animosity for Baldwin. It is _not_ fine if you allow that animosity to skew your interpretation of the facts in the incident. > > Given these facts — it was a professional film set, there was an armorer present, the incident happened during a rehearsal prior to actual filming — Baldwin bears zero responsibility. He would not have been expected to re-check the gun after the armorer handed it to him. It just doesn’t work like that. > > Also, you should set aside all the mental poisoning from celebrity-obsessed media, which invariably looks for the biggest name in the story and makes them the center of the coverage, because that’s what sells papers and draws clicks. Objectively, the real story here is that the negligence of the armorer caused the death of a promising young female cinematographer (a rarity in Hollywood!) who was highly regarded and coming up fast on a major career. > > That’s the headline. “Movie gun-handler’s negligence causes death of up-and-coming cinematographer.” Baldwin is almost incidental to the story. > > Now that I’ve said this, I fully expect to be ignored and argued with, by people who can’t get past the fact that Baldwin is the Big Famous Name in the story so of course he’s the most interesting part to talk about. Whatever. > > Caveat: Yes, there is a vanishingly small possibility that Baldwin, as the producer of the movie, hired an unqualified armorer or was making unprofessional demands or something else that causes liability to attach to him. It’s not impossible, and if counterfactual information emerges, then the situation will change. But if you know how movie sets work, especially on the subject of prop firearms, you know that this is very, very, _very_ unlikely, and that the overwhelming odds favor the negligent-armorer story. > > This is the Dope, people. Facts first. This is as good a place as any to dive into this. I’m a member of IATSE Local 600- the Cinematographer Guild. We’ve all lost a Sister in this accident. Lots of opinions posed as facts. Here are a set of facts that aren’t being discussed anywhere in the media. This, from a member of the Camera Department of “Rust”. Best to address some of the “factual” comments made in the post I’m quoting as well as address other remarks. But before I do, here’s a bit of fact that occurred the night before the shooting that has gone utterly unreported in the media: 4 members of the Camera Department quit this show that night. That’d be Wednesday night. Here is the quote of this member’s text to a colleague. It is a truncated screenshot and begins mid-sentence: > [@Rust Crew Member](#): > > The entire camera crew walked off that morning for that exact reason. Last night we each wrote resignation letters. > We cited everything from lack of payment for three weeks, taking our hotels away despite asking for them in our deals, lack of COVID safety, Andean (sic) poor guns safety. Poor on set safety period ! > We wrote about this exact issue last night and walked this morning because of it ! > That’s not in any of the papers ! > They brought in 4 non-union guys to replace us and tried calling the cops on us. > Only people who stayed were Halyna ( DP ) and Reid the B Steadi Op. Before people rain down on me over the fact that this could be pure fiction, let me say that I’m also a Steadicam Operator. Reid is in fact the B camera/ Steadicam Op on “Rust”. He talked about this gig before going out on it in New Mexico. This ONE bit informs me that this is a geniune screenshot. New Mexico has exploded recently as the new Production mecca. Zero Unions ( more about that below ), lower costs of gear and so on. Netflix purchaed [an entire film studio complex](https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-05-03/why-hollywood-is-moving-to-albuquerque) before COVID-19 shut everything down. I’d read things online in various Camera- and Production-forums regarding the lack of proper ( Union ) discipline in all crafts on sets in New Mexico, as well as all other “right to work” states. Abusive hours, poor housing, unsafe transportation and the more obvious red flags: stunts and firearms. It’s very cheap to hire someone who has a Pelican case filled with guns who says they are an Armorer. It’s another thing entirely to be on set with a genine Armorer who runs a very tight and controlled situation regarding firearms. ( Stunts and explosions are the purvey of others on a set ). I’ve been shot at on sets at relatively close range. ( And I detest guns ). With utmost care and regard for my safety, we got the shot. 1/4-load blanks were used and the extras playing NYPD cops were drilled as to proper protocols. All went well. When things are managed strictly, nobody needs to get hurt. AND since it’s 2021, nobody ever needs to get hurt because all actions related to the firing of a gun large or small can be added by using CGI in post-production. Muzzle flash, weapon kick, slide action on an automatic handgun. All easily added in post. Unless you’re doing a lowball cheap show. Because those pixels cost money and bullets and real guns are quite cheap. No surprise that the entire budget is being listed publicly at (roughly ) 2 million, with $ 700,000 of that as salary to Mr. Baldwin. You work cheap, you cut corners. You use guns that can fire bullets. You don’t take care with safety. And people are injured or killed. I’m sickened by this. EVERY death on a film set is unneccesary and frankly, unless you are a trained Stunt person, every injury is similarly unneccesary. Considering the quote I posted about by a (former) crew member, I would not be surprised to learn that Ms. Hutchins had stepped up to operate her own camera since the Operator had resigned the night before. Now, had this labor incident not occurred the Operator would have been in the line of fire and the D.P. ( Ms. Hutchins ) may well have been off to the side, clear of the line of fire. It will come out if she in fact was Operating on the day. The last IATSE 600 contracts allow for the D.P. to Operate themselves instead of insisting on a separate Operator. Points of fact. I’m in no way saying it would have been worse or better for another technician to be shot to death. Personal aside: Hey, Bill\_Doors, nice to see you here even if on a sober topic !! Congrats on moving onto work on sets. Best to Robin !! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/213 "2021-10-22T19:09:13Z")
> **[Prop Gun Fired by Alec Baldwin Contained a ‘Live Single Round,’ Says IATSE...](https://www.indiewire.com/features/general/alec-baldwin-fires-gun-kills-cinematographer-wounds-director-on-rust-set-1234673555/)** > > The incident took place October 21 at the Bonanza Creek Ranch in Santa Fe County. It is under investigation. > [@](#): > > IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, sent an email to its members early Friday morning that said the gun used in the scene contained “a live round” and the production’s propmaster was not a member of Local 44. Director Joel Souza also was hit and injured by a bullet and was treated at an area hospital before being released. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/214 "2021-10-22T19:10:09Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Hm, is it possible to create a prop gun with realistic recoil that doesn’t fire anything? Blank-firing guns have negligible recoil compared to live rounds fired from a gun. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/215 "2021-10-22T19:13:21Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > > [@What\_Exit](#): > > > > Please do not go off on a tangent about the Police > > So Sting’s a suspect now? I still think he framed the bassoonist. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/216 "2021-10-22T19:15:16Z")
> [@madsircool](#): > > Because the victims were the DoC and the director. Why would Baldwin be aiming at them? First of all, it’s D.O.P. ( Director of Photography ), and she’s dead. At least get that RIGHT. To answer you briefly , Directors either hide out at Video Village or stand quite near the camera to direct and line up shots. It is beyond the norm and accepted practice for the D.O.P. and Director to both be near the camera while lining up a shot and, for that matter, when doing a take of that shot. It’s the way it’s done a lot of the time. Both in rehearsal and take mode. Sorry if that doesn’t fit your narrative. Last year I got my 30-year Pin in IATSE Local 600 as an Operator. Trust me, please, when I tell you I know of whence I speak. By comparison, it would be useful for you to share with the people reading this thread the depth of your experience in filmmaking. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/217 "2021-10-22T19:19:28Z")
What’s the difference between director of photography and director of cinematography? ---
**Author:** ![markn\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f9ae1b/32.png) [@markn\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/markn_1)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/218 "2021-10-22T19:22:17Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > The episode that first spring’s to my mind is the one where Sharona’s sister is in a play and gets popped for murder when someone switches a prop knife on stage with a real knife that her character uses to “kill” another character. I thought of that episode too. In fact I just saw that episode again a couple of weeks ago. But your description is not accurate. That was merely one of the theories about the murder, but what actually happened was the killer tainted an apple that the actor ate onstage with something he was allergic to, causing him to collapse. Then the killer’s accomplice, pretending to be a doctor in the audience, ran up on stage and secretly stabbed him while pretending to take his pulse. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/219 "2021-10-22T19:23:47Z")
Thanks, **Cartooniverse** and others bringing specialized knowledge to the thread. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/220 "2021-10-22T19:25:42Z")
I remember an episode of an HBO drama in which two actors were performing Macbeth and the prop knife was switched for a real one. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/221 "2021-10-22T19:27:37Z")
IATSE 720 member here; thanks to **Cartooniverse** for weighing in with such great info and perspective. And yeah: RIP Sister Helyna. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2021, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/222 "2021-10-22T19:28:50Z")
Question: Can an actor under film lights even SEE the people behind the camera? I can imagine a scenario where Baldwin was essentially shooting into the camera woth the camera being the POV of the person being shot in the film. He’s told not to shoot right at the camera to avoid damage to the lens from powder particles, so he aims slightly off, fires, and hits people standing behind and slightly off to the side of the camera. I suspect cameras probably have some sort of lexan or other clear shield in front of them for this sort of thing which may have given everyone a sense of unwarranted safety. As for the possibility of a live round being in the gun, it being a revolver could explain it. Revolvers need to use dummy bullets and not normal blanks, because you can see the tips of the bullets in the cylinder when it’s aimed at the camera. So I am guessing that fake rounds look a lot more like real ones in this situation. If someone accidentally loaded a real round, it might be hard to know. Maybe someone volunteered their own western collectible revolver for the shoot, and no one cleared it properly before rehearsal, and everyone assumed the bullets they coild see were dummies. A massive screw-up in any case. But absent more information, I don’t see how Baldwin is at fault. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=12)