# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 119
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2369 "2024-01-21T19:57:04Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > Cooper’s Rules are absolute and inviolable. Here’s the full list of Cooper’s Rules: 1. Treat every weapon as if it were loaded. 2. Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you’re ready to fire. **3. Never point a weapon at anything you do not intend to shoot.** 3. Be sure of your target and what is in front and behind it. 4. Never attempt to catch a falling weapon. #3, in particular, seems absolutely incompatible with filmmaking. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2370 "2024-01-21T19:58:41Z")
> [@silenus](#): > > The first cite is from the Firearm Industry Trade Association. If you can find something more professional than **that** … Please follow the context. Of course I’m not disputing that these are standard safety protocols for everyday gun handling. What I’m saying is that _applying these simplistically to movie sets_ is the fantasy of amateur gun owners who like to see themselves as firearms experts. It absolutely does _not_ enhance safety to have an amateur who thinks they are a ruggedly individual firearms expert “double checking” anything in an _ad hoc_ manner that deviates from formally specified safety protocols. If a gun is being pointed at me on set, I want another actor “double checking” that a gun is safe in some _ad hoc_ manner to the same extent that I want another amateur jumper opening up my backpack and “double checking” that my parachute is packed correctly, or another passenger fiddling with the handle to “double check” that the door on an aircraft is closed correctly. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2371 "2024-01-21T20:21:14Z")
> [@Lightnin](#): > > #3, in particular, seems absolutely incompatible with filmmaking. Only if you take it for granted, as apparently so many have, that they need to use real guns in filmmaking. That there are no reasonable alternatives. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2372 "2024-01-21T20:44:24Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Only if you take it for granted, as apparently so many have, that they need to use real guns in filmmaking. That there are no reasonable alternatives. This is tangential to the _Rust_ incident, since it is standard practise in the industry to use real guns. And there is no evidence that industry safety protocols are unsafe. The evidence would support repealing the 2nd Amendment (or reinterpreting it in a far more sensible way) as a much higher safety priority than banning the use of guns on movie sets. But either way, with real guns or without, Cooper’s Rules do not govern movie sets. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2373 "2024-01-21T21:20:15Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But either way, with real guns or without, Cooper’s Rules do not govern movie sets. - Exactly. What’s the point of checking? It’s _supposed_ to be loaded. What would be needed is a way to clearly distinguish real from fake ammo. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2374 "2024-01-21T21:24:28Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > He was producer in the production = His job. OSHA did an investigation and concluded it was not his job. > **[Alec Baldwin Indicted on Manslaughter Charge in ‘Rust’ Shooting](https://variety.com/2024/biz/news/alec-baldwin-manslaughter-rust-shooting-again-1235875855/)** > > Alec Baldwin has been charged as prosecutors again seek to hold him responsible for the death of 'Rust' cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. > The initial prosecutors, Mary Carmack-Altwies and Andrea Reeb, held Baldwin responsible not only for pulling the trigger, but also for a series of management lapses that led to relaxed safety standards on set. However, the New Mexico division of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration concluded that Baldwin — though he was a producer on the film — [was not in a position of management authority](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/alec-baldwin-rust-producer-da-osha-1235531157/), and was not culpable for the lack of oversight. (This was already posted to the thread but nobody seemed to read it.) ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2375 "2024-01-21T21:24:47Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > This is tangential to the _Rust_ incident, since it is standard practise in the industry to use real guns. And there is no evidence that industry safety protocols are unsafe. Pedant warning: there is _some_ evidence that industry safety protocols are unsafe. Specifically, the deceased cinematographer. Shot dead on a film set in part because the “standard practice in the industry” is to use real guns that can accommodate real bullets. You don’t judge a system by its successes or even by what happens when people strictly adhere to it. You judge it according to its failure, and not least of which are those failures attributable to human error where, for whatever reason, a real live human failed to strictly comply with all system requirements. You judge systems not simply according to how they are, but how they could be. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2376 "2024-01-21T21:27:03Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > Pedant warning: there is _some_ evidence that industry safety protocols are unsafe. Specifically, the deceased cinematographer. The evidence I’m aware of is that basic industry safety protocols were _not followed_. > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > You don’t judge a system by its successes or even by what happens when people strictly adhere to it. You judge it according to its failure, and not least of which are those failures attributable to human error where, for whatever reason, a real live human failed to strictly comply with all system requirements. You judge systems not simply according to how they are, but how they could be. Sure, robustness of protocols is an isssue. How many times has this happened? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2377 "2024-01-21T21:30:08Z")
That’s true, but to my point about judging systems not only by how they work (or don’t) when adhered to, but how they they work (or don’t) when they are not, as here, strictly adhered to, it is equally true that, had industry safety protocols precluded the use of real firearms capable of firing real bullets, there’s every likelihood that even with live rounds on set and a host of other failure, this would not have culminated in the death of a wife, mother, and cinematographer. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2378 "2024-01-21T21:31:10Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > this would not have culminated in the death of a wife, mother, and cinematographer. If she were unmarried with no children and was only responsible for making coffee, I guess it would have been okay. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2379 "2024-01-21T21:31:18Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > How many times has this happened? That is a fair question, but not the only one: it’s also worth asking _how many times does it need to happen to justify changing industry protocols to preclude the use of real guns capable of firing real bullets on a film set_? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2380 "2024-01-21T21:33:29Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > …_how many times does it need to happen to justify changing industry protocols to preclude the use of real guns capable of firing real bullets on a film set_? This is a stunningly false dichotomy. How about any one of dozens of other changes that could be made, like more stringent training/licensing of armorers? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2381 "2024-01-21T21:35:16Z")
[Moderating] > [@Riemann](#): > > If she were unmarried with no children and was only responsible for making coffee, I guess it would have been okay. This isn’t what was meant, and you know it. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2382 "2024-01-21T21:37:20Z")
And you should also know that I wasn’t _implying_ that was literally what was meant. It was obviously rhetorical, mocking the weakness of the appeal to emotion in the argument. ETA: I don’t know if you edited your comment, but it turned green with the “Moderating” tag after I posted. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2383 "2024-01-21T22:00:25Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > think this suggestion is the product of people with gun fetish fantasies who like to see themselves as firearms experts. As I’ve said before in this thread, if I were an actor on a set with firearms and another _actor_ started fiddling with the gun that the armorer provided and “checking it himself” I’m walking off the set and calling my union rep. Just as I’d do if I saw any actor messing around with a lighting rig or anything else critical for safety on set. > > It is absolutely _not_ a good idea for actors to be taking upon themselves any responsibility whatsoever for ensuring that prop guns are safe beyond strictly following established formal safety protocols or the specific instructions of the armorer. It is the actor’s job to verify that the gun is safe. The way that is supposed to happen is that the armorer shows the actor that the gun is safe. The actor doesn’t do it, but they are not supposed to accept a gun where the armorer has not demonstrated that it’s safe. One of the problems on this set was that, at least from some reports the armorer had vanished, leaving the guns outside unattended. The other producer went out to find her, couldn’t, but saw the table with ‘safe’ guns on it. He grabbed one, walked back in and handed it to Baldwin, saying “Safe Gun”. Baldwin did not check, or ask for a check, because he knew that the guy giving him the gun wasn’t trained. But he may have assumed that the armorer demonstrated the safe gun to the producer before he brought it in. I think another complication is that Covid protocols were in place, and the set was closed. Some reports say the armorer wasn’t allowed in, so Baldwin may have thought the situation was totally normal. But we are all undoubtedly missing details that may be important. And a lot of early reports turned out to be completely wrong, so this is a pretty murky situation. One thing is certain: Baldwin pulled the trigger. That gun they were using is a very high quality replica of a Colt Peacemaker. They are very simple guns. My guess is that Baldwin already had the trigger pulled and didn’t know it when he thumbed back the hammer, then when he releassed it the gun went off, surprising him. I don’t think he belongs in jail. That would be ridiculous for a movie set accident. But he could be guilty of manslaughter through reckless behavior or indifference to the risks, which should get him a felony conviction and probation and a heavy fine. But jail? I don’t see it. I think much should be based on Baldwin’s behavior. Was it outside the norm for actors? There are a lot of practices that are mandatory on paper, but over the years get watered down or forgotten. If it’s common for actors to skip the ‘safe gun’ check, or if actors commonly wave around prop guns and pull the trigger, then I can’t see charging Baldwin with much. But if other actors are more creful and it’s unheard of to accept a gun without checking, then Baldwin should be in trouble. Maybe @Cartooniverse knows what the actual real world practices are like. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2384 "2024-01-21T22:08:36Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It is the actor’s job to verify that the gun is safe. No, it’s not. No more than it’s the actor’s job to make sure that anything else on set is safe. It is the actor’s job to _follow safety protocols_, established by safety professionals whose job it is to ensure that guns on set are safe. Perhaps Baldwin (and others on set) should have _refused to proceed_ if it was apparent that the armorer was incompetent or that the usual industry safety protocols were not being followed. But that potential fault should be clearly distinguished from the nonsense the cause here was an actor on a film set not following Cooper’s Rules. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2385 "2024-01-21T22:14:31Z")
If I hand you a gun and say it is unloaded and you turn around and point the gun at others and pull the trigger and kill someone that is only on me and not you too? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2386 "2024-01-21T22:18:08Z")
I’m sure that would be a devastating gotcha if you could explain why it’s remotely relevant to safety protocols on a movie set. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2387 "2024-01-21T22:19:08Z")
Well…consider what a jury will think at Baldwin’s trial. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 21, 2024, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2388 "2024-01-21T22:22:13Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > consider what a jury will think at Baldwin’s trial. I think they will conclude it wasn’t his fault [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=118) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=120)