# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 123
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2449 "2024-01-22T17:48:04Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Then i see no problem with charging Baldwin, as well at the others. He seems to have some responsibility It the last few years I’ve seen: A truck driver run over and kill a woman in a parking lot because the sun was in his eyes and he didn’t see her. (no charges) A man crushed to death in a hay baler that was turned on while he was cleaning it (no charges) A woman dies in the ER waiting room because the nurse fails to recognize clear signs of a brain bleed (no charges) A woman hit and killed while crossing the street in a marked crosswalk on a dark and rainy morning (traffic infraction for “failing to yield to pedestrian.”) Unless a case involves drugs or alcohol, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an “accident” charged as a homicide or even a felony. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2450 "2024-01-22T18:07:59Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > Unless a case involves drugs or alcohol, I don’t think I’ve ever seen an “accident” charged as a homicide or even a felony. But none of those were a famous celebrity and the prosecution wasn’t getting public pressure to charge them. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2451 "2024-01-22T18:08:43Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is that the same for a harness or fake glass? Throwing someone through plate glass can be lethal. Pushing someone off a building can be lethal. These acts are rendered non-lethal, are rendered safe, by the actions and knowledge of industry professionals. They are not rendered safe by making an actor review the work of those industry professionals. You’re connected to a harness, and Alec Baldwin is going to throw you off a building. Alec says to you “Turn around so I can check those connections, can’t be too safe.” You turn around, hear a bunch of jingling, and Alec says “Looks good to me, let’s do this!” What idiot would be OK with that? The actors should be treated like extensions of the armorer’s hand. The actor doesn’t decide if a gun is safe, or if a trigger may be pulled, the armorer does. The armorer says “this is safe to point and shoot”, any pointing and shooting should be treated as if it’s in the armorer’s hand and they are doing the pointing and shooting. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2452 "2024-01-22T18:45:55Z")
But the actor chose to use the gun even though the armorer wasn’t even on set to check the gun for safety. That seems reckless. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2453 "2024-01-22T19:03:08Z")
But did he know she wasn’t there? The set they were filming in was closed due to COVID safety protocols that appear to me to have clashed with the firearm safety protocols. Only people involved in the shooting of the scene were allowed in the building, hence why the AD had to go outside to find the armorer and the gun. **But she wasn’t there, so he took the gun anyway assuming it was fine.** To my mind, that’s the critical failure. Sure, it sounds like the armorer was incompetent, but we’ll never know if she would have caught the ammo mixup because instead of stopping the rehearsal to wait for her, the AD went ahead without her input. Should Baldwin have verified the firearm was safe? Sure, probably. But laying this significantly on him is putting the weight on the least knowledgeable person in the chain. He doesn’t know (afaik) that the armorer wasn’t outside and he maybe doesn’t know the AD skipped that step. Maybe he can’t really tell the difference between a live round and a camera-ready dummy. And I agree that the Cooper Rules business is a total non-starter for me. If those rules apply, then I expect that all driving rules and safety practices should be followed, and no car chase should ever include swerving or exceeding the speed limits. And Jesus H. Christ, let’s never ever light a stuntman on fire again. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2454 "2024-01-22T19:07:38Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > And I agree that the Cooper Rules business is a total non-starter for me. Yeah, that seems like an impossible ask for a movie with gunfire. But ultimately, he fired a gun at someone without following the safety precautions that are appropriate for movie sets (the armorer needs to show the actor that the gun is safe. Or at least, check in the presence of the actor and assert it’s safe.) That seems like kinda a big mistake. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2455 "2024-01-22T19:10:32Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But ultimately, he fired a gun at someone without following the safety precautions that are appropriate for movie sets (the armorer needs to show the actor that the gun is safe. Or at least, check in the presence of the actor and assert it’s safe.) That seems like kinda a big mistake. But again, the COVID protocols meant that the armorer could not enter the set to demonstrate safety. What were the alternate expectations put in place given this conflict? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2456 "2024-01-22T19:17:14Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But ultimately, he fired a gun at someone without following the safety precautions that are appropriate for movie sets (the armorer needs to show the actor that the gun is safe. Or at least, check in the presence of the actor and assert it’s safe.) That seems like kinda a big mistake. But what exactly is the standard procedure in the industry to demonstrate that a gun loaded with inert rounds is safe at handover? Obviously it is not “open the gun and check that it is empty” because it is _supposed_ to be loaded. It’s difficult to pass judgment on whether Baldwin should have refused to proceed without some critical handover step unless we know exactly what that step would normally be. There’s some information earlier in the thread posted by people with some knowledge, but I didn’t see anything definitive about standard practice in the industry. The one thing that seems certain is that it is an absolute taboo that live ammo should be anywhere near a set. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2457 "2024-01-22T19:26:56Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Alec says to you “Turn around so I can check those connections, can’t be too safe.” You turn around, hear a bunch of jingling, and Alec says “Looks good to me, let’s do this!” What idiot would be OK with that? And all the gun safety “experts” in this thread suggesting that they would be safer on set because of their knowledge of the Cooper Rules is a perfect example of a little knowledge being a dangerous thing. If an actor is handling a gun on my set, I want neither Mr Heston nor Mr Dunning nor Ms Kruger to do it. I want someone who diligently follows the instructions and training of professional movie set gun safety expects. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2458 "2024-01-22T19:34:59Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But ultimately, he fired a gun at someone without following the safety precautions that are appropriate for movie sets **(the armorer needs to show the actor that the gun is safe.** Or at least, check in the presence of the actor and assert it’s safe.) That seems like kinda a big mistake. - > [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > But again, **the COVID protocols meant that the armorer could not enter the set to demonstrate safety.** What were the alternate expectations put in place given this conflict? - Then there should have been a location to make the handover where the armorer could be present. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2459 "2024-01-22T19:40:24Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > But what exactly is the standard procedure in the industry to demonstrate that a gun loaded with inert rounds is safe at handover? Obviously it is not “open the gun and check that it is empty” because it is _supposed_ to be loaded. My understanding is that if the gun is supposed to be empty, the armorer opens the action and shows the actor (on the gun in question, the action can’t be opened, and requires the loading port to be opened then the cylinder rotated through every position while looking through the loading port to verify no bullets). If the gun is supposed to have blanks, the armorer should remove the cartridges and show that they are blanks, and verify that the barrel is not blocked in front of the actor. If the gun uses ‘dummy’ bullets, they should rattle when shaken and have a hole drilled in the side of the brass. The armorer demonstrates this in front of the actor.8 I am not a lawyer, but in a negligence case I would think that much would depend on not just the actor’s adherence to the strict rules, but how far the actor deviated from normal practice. There are a lot of rules out there that are simply not followed in practice. If it’s normal on a set for actors to go through this procedure of being shown the gun is safe, and not doing it is a surprising thing, then Baldwin could be said to have acted with indifference or recklessness. But if the rule is basically a ‘paper rule’ that is widely ignored, then Baldwin should be held to a slightly different standard. I don’t know which is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2460 "2024-01-22T19:44:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If the gun uses ‘dummy’ bullets, they should rattle when shaken and have a hole drilled in the side of the brass. The armorer demonstrates this in front of the actor.8 > > I am not a lawyer, but in a negligence case I would think that much would depend on not just the actor’s adherence to the strict rules, but how far the actor deviated from normal practice. There are a lot of rules out there that are simply not followed in practice. Yes, I know this was suggesed as ideal practice earlier in the thread. But it’s really not clear that it was _standard_ practice. If it were followed, it would presumably have to mean that the armorer shows every bullet and loads the gun in front of the actor. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2461 "2024-01-22T20:06:12Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Yes, I know this was suggesed as ideal practice earlier in the thread. But it’s really not clear that it was _standard_ practice. If it were followed, it would presumably have to mean that the armorer shows every bullet and loads the gun in front of the actor. Did you read my whole message? I said exactly that. There is a big difference between written rules and what is actually done in practice. Safety degrades, and ironically often degrades fastest after the rules work for a long time and people get complacent. It’s possible that actors were incredibly diligent about this after the rules were first written, but over time have reverted to not caring much because ‘the armorer makes them safe’. But I don’t really know how closely these practices are adhered to. If not much and Hutchins was the victim of a breakdown of safety culture in the film industry generally, Baldwin should have very little liability in his role as an actor. But if he can be shown to have veered off of practices that everyone else does, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2462 "2024-01-22T20:24:32Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > If it’s normal on a set for actors to go through this procedure of being shown the gun is safe, and not doing it is a surprising thing, then Baldwin could be said to have acted with indifference or recklessness. But if the rule is basically a ‘paper rule’ that is widely ignored, then Baldwin should be held to a slightly different standard. I don’t know which is the case. Yes. But that’s the sort of “question of fact” that we routinely set to juries to decide. I don’t know if he will be found guilty. I think there’s enough evidence for a trial, which is a much lower standard. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2463 "2024-01-22T20:30:54Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I think there’s enough evidence for a trial That’s a very confident claim when you don’t know enough about industry practice to even know what safety protocol you think he violated. Trial juries are finders of fact, but trials are not fishing expeditions. A criminal prosecution requires a coherent theory of the alleged crime. You haven’t presented one, and nothing from this DA’s office indicates that they have one either. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2464 "2024-01-22T20:39:24Z")
Certainly the prosecutor thinks there is enough evidence to go to trial, or Baldwin would not have been re-indicted. Since the prosecutor knows a lot more than we do, and we’re subject to a lot of misinformation that has come out on this case, I think deferring to the prosecutor’s judgment until all the facts finally come out is only prudent. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2465 "2024-01-22T20:44:31Z")
To be fair, getting an indictment is trivial. Also, a prosecutor going after someone to further their own career is not new either. I am not saying any of that is happening here but I do not think we can draw conclusions because someone was indicted. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2466 "2024-01-22T20:46:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Certainly the prosecutor thinks there is enough evidence to go to trial This week they do, based on what seems to be irrelevant new forensic evidence that Baldwin accidentally pulled the trigger. > [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Since the prosecutor knows a lot more than we do, and we’re subject to a lot of misinformation that has come out on this case, I think deferring to the prosecutor’s judgment until all the facts finally come out is only prudent. If the DA’s office want to demonstrate that they are competent, they are welcome to explain what they are doing and why. Until then, a reasonable provisional assumption based on what they have done and said so far is that they are incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![echoreply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/echoreply/32/3641_2.png) [@echoreply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/echoreply)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2467 "2024-01-22T20:49:29Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > Then there should have been a location to make the handover where the armorer could be present There was, but the AD waiting for the armorer to be present is one of the last errors in the chain of errors leading to the death. If there hadn’t been live ammo on set If the live ammo hadn’t been left in a gun to be used in rehearsal If the armorer had been around to catch the loaded gun If the AD had waited for the armorer to clear the gun If the trigger hadn’t accidentally been pulled at just the wrong time (or whatever other error caused the gun to fire) > [@puzzlegal](#): > > without following the safety precautions that are appropriate for movie sets Is this true? From Baldwin’s perspective, the AD handed him a gun and told him it was “safe” or “cold” or whatever. If that is how things are typically supposed to happen, then he would think he was following the rules. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > But the actor chose to use the gun even though the armorer wasn’t even on set to check the gun for safety This is the one place where I think additional training and rules could increase safety. Make it standard procedure that everyone is aware of who is in charge of what aspects of the set, and what to do if safety procedures are not in place. It isn’t necessary that the actors know what the armorer (or electrician or stunt coordinator or etc.) knows, but that the actor knows what to do and _who to contact_ when something doesn’t seem right. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2468 "2024-01-22T20:55:33Z")
Rules around Covid isolation and distancing contributed to the chaos on the set. That may be a factor to consider. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=122) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=124)