# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21}

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Tags:** breaking-news\
**Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 124

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**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\
**Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2469 "2024-01-22T21:48:29Z")

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> [@Whack-a-Mole](#):
>
> A gun is a weapon. Its proper operation can be lethal to others (indeed, that is its purpose).

A prop isn’t supposed to be a weapon though.

Let’s try another example. I’m handed a grenade for a scene, told to remove the pin and throw it over a wall.

Am I responsible for telling whether it is a real grenade?

Don’t forget: _a grenade is a weapon_

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**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\
**Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2470 "2024-01-22T22:07:42Z")

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Just a reminder that the day before crew members had walked off set because of unsafe conditions. The whole production was a shit show.

And another reminder just in case it needs to be said: OSHA ruled that Baldwin’s producer role was limited to things like casting choices. He was not in charge of anything.

EDIT: Also, I had forgotten this fact, but regarding the guy (David Halls) who handed the gun to Baldwin and said it was cold. He was fired from a previous job a couple years before because a gun went off, injuring somebody but not killing them.

For some reason, everything I’m finding says that the standard procedure on this set was for the armorer to demonstrate the gun was safe to Halls, and then Halls would give the gun to the actor. Halls admitted he did not check the bullets in the gun before handing it to Baldwin. He also insisted that Baldwin never pulled the trigger. (He was standing right next to him when the gun went off.)

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**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\
**Post date:** [January 22, 2024, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2471 "2024-01-22T23:21:39Z")

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> [@echoreply](#):
>
> From Baldwin’s perspective, the AD handed him a gun and told him it was “safe” or “cold” or whatever.

See here:

> **['Rust' assistant director says he should have checked gun more carefully](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rust-assistant-director-tells-investigators-he-should-have-checked-gun-n1282544)**
>
> David Halls told investigators that he did not look at each individual round of ammunition in the gun during his safety check last week.

> “Rust” [assistant director David Halls](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rust-assistant-director-was-fired-2019-movie-after-gun-discharged-n1282339) told authorities he should have checked the gun used on set last week more thoroughly after noticing a difference in the ammunition rounds, according to a search warrant affidavit.
> 
> Halls told investigations in an interview that he did not check each individual round of ammunition in the gun before handing it back to the armorer, Hannah Gutierrez-Reed, the day cinematographer Halyna Hutchins died, the court document said.
> 
> After the shooting, Halls took the gun to Gutierrez-Reed and recalled seeing at least four “dummy” casings with the hole on the side, and one without the hole, when she opened the gun, according to Halls’ interview. The round without the hole did not have the “cap” on it and was just the casing, according to the warrant.

This is why he pled no contest to negligent use of a deadly weapon.

And he did inform people that the gun was safe, including Baldwin.

> In response to questions about safety protocols on set, Halls said that he is in charge of yelling “cold gun,” which indicates the firearm doesn’t have live ammunition. He announced it was a “cold gun” Thursday, indicating to everyone on set that the firearm was safe.

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**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2472 "2024-01-23T01:00:46Z")

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> [@Riemann](#):
>
> I want someone who diligently follows the instructions and training of professional movie set gun safety expects.

Because that worked so well this time.

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**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2473 "2024-01-23T01:30:43Z")

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> [@leahcim](#):
>
> whether Baldwin was a “real” producer or not.

This movie was his personal passion project, and he is a notorious micro-manager. I find it difficult to believe there was any aspect of the production that he was not tyrannizing.

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**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2474 "2024-01-23T03:45:05Z")

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OSHA disagrees with your assessment.

> **[D.A. and OSHA Disagree on Alec Baldwin’s Culpability as ‘Rust’ Producer...](https://variety.com/2023/film/news/alec-baldwin-rust-producer-da-osha-1235531157/)**
>
> The D.A. holds Alec Baldwin responsible for management failures on 'Rust,' but OSHA determined he was not in charge.

> [@](#):
>
> in a parallel proceeding, the New Mexico division of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration found that Baldwin was not in charge and was not the one culpable for lax oversight.
> 
> “He didn’t actually have employees on-site that he or his delegated persons would manage or oversee,” said Lorenzo Montoya, OSHA’s lead investigator, in a deposition last month. Aside from his personal assistant, Montoya said, “He has no employee presence. He’s just him.”
> 
> The divergent conclusions could complicate efforts to hold Baldwin criminally responsible. They also raise questions about why, if the prosecutors wanted to pursue management failures, they did not charge others in the production’s hierarchy.

> [@](#):
>
> the D.A. blamed Baldwin for allowing the hiring of Gutierrez Reed, despite her inexperience. However, Gabrielle Pickle, the line producer, testified that she hired Gutierrez Reed after consulting with Halls, director Joel Souza, the production designer and “one or two of the producers.”  
> […]  
> She did not mention Baldwin as a participant in the hiring process. Baldwin has denied any involve- ment and has said that his producer role was limited to creative choices, such as casting decisions and script changes.

And on a different topic, the article had the following to say regarding who was responsible for safety on the set:

> The D.A. also faulted Baldwin for not ensuring that safety meetings were held, contributing to a “climate of recklessness” on set. But in his deposition, Halls said that it was his job to oversee safety meetings.

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**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2475 "2024-01-23T04:43:24Z")

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I’m inclined to trust OSHA. Avoiding accidents is what they do, and analyzing accidents is part of that.

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**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2476 "2024-01-23T04:55:48Z")

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> [@silenus](#):
>
> Because that worked so well this time.

What is this worthless gotcha-like comment supposed to mean? Are you _disagreeing_ that safety on a movie set should be managed by specialist safety experts, and that actors should be working under their close supervision and carefully following their instructions?

Of course this all went disastrously wrong this time. But unless you understand what is _supposed_ to be happening, you cannot understand where the failures were and who bears responsibility.

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**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2477 "2024-01-23T06:37:38Z")

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> [@Atamasama](#):
>
> This is why he pled no contest to negligent use of a deadly weapon.

From the perspective of someone who knows how movie sets are organized and run, I personally believe David Halls is the real scumbag in this story.

The assistant director is (typically) the one who’s in charge of the day-to-day. The director is the creative boss (give or take the political reality from show to show where there’s a powerful actor or hands-on producer), but the director is frequently swamped with endless creative decisions, so the assistant director is usually the one with the actual job of running the set, minute by minute.

In this case, it would almost certainly have been Halls who decided it was okay for Gutierrez-Reed (the armorer) not to directly supervise the firearms, and to prep them for himself to retrieve and bring to the actor. This kind of set organization question would likely have been in his purview. If Baldwin as the actor accepted the weapon from Halls, it’s because this was the (COVID-influenced) protocol on that set. In other words, the armorer failed _on that specific day_ by preparing a weapon with a live round, but Halls failed _generally_ by instilling and supervising the sloppy culture that made it possible for that dangerous weapon to be delivered to the actor on the day.

I strongly suspect, but cannot prove, that Halls pled so quickly because he knew that an objective and methodical investigation and analysis into how the set was organized and who was actually responsible would have wound up incriminating him _at least_ as much as the negligent armorer, and because he recognized that law enforcement didn’t understand the movie industry and his role on the set. He saw that the investigators, being human, were starting to sniff after the celebrity, which created an opportunity for him to dodge accountability and run away.

I have come around on a small amount of responsibility attaching to Baldwin; with the misfires and other issues on the set, he could have forced the production’s hand, insisting that safety should be reconsidered and reprioritized. But this would have brought the shoot to a standstill, for days at least, and more importantly, from a perspective of set politics, Halls was in charge of this stuff. It would have been easy for Baldwin to just keep his head down, trust Halls as a professional, and let the machine work. Obviously, in hindsight, this was a fatal error. But it does _not_ mean primary responsibility adheres to Baldwin.

If my suspicions are correct, then the accountability breakdown is 50% Halls, 45% Gutierrez-Reed, and 5% Baldwin. And law enforcement was seriously derelict in their duty by allowing Halls to plead out before they had a clear picture of how a movie set is actually run and who’s really in charge, and thus who is _truly_ responsible for a hot gun to slip through the usual controls.

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**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 7:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2478 "2024-01-23T07:15:13Z")

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> [@puzzlegal](#):
>
> Right that’s because i am referencing Baldwin. If one of the safety protocols is that he’s not supposed to use a gun until the armorer has demonstrated to him that it’s safe, then he, Baldwin, skipped that step.

Right-o. I get where you’re coming from.

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**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2479 "2024-01-23T11:25:31Z")

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I think Halls bears most of the responsibility. He is the one who called out that it was a cold gun. It is inexcusable to do that without double checking.

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**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2480 "2024-01-23T11:44:02Z")

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Especially because he apparently didn’t have it handed to him by the armorer; he just picked it up where it was left for retrieval.

Which is why, when he realized the law-enforcement folks had no idea about roles and responsibilities on a movie set and didn’t understand his level of culpability, he pled as fast as he could and scampered away.

I mean, allegedly. Like I said, just my strong suspicion.

Now, it’s unclear whether prosecutors are continuing to go after Baldwin because they realize they fucked up by letting the primary party escape without sufficient scrutiny and now they need to deliver a high-profile trial to cover up that error, or if they have no idea that they fucked up and simply continue to be blinded by celebrity the way they were from the beginning.

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**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2481 "2024-01-23T13:03:38Z")

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I mean, Hall is guilty, but he was also convicted. “No contest” is not all that different from “guilty”.

I guess he pled “negligent use if a deadly weapon”, not “manslaughter”, though.

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**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2482 "2024-01-23T13:07:08Z")

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That last is my point. The charges should be inverted. Negligence for Baldwin seems fair, while manslaughter is what Halls should have faced.

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**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2483 "2024-01-23T13:12:46Z")

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And some of the blame goes to covid. If they weren’t trying to keep staffing low because of covid, the armorer would have been there, and who know, maybe she’d have actually done her job if she’d been allowed to.

I don’t see her as very guilty. If she wasn’t allowed on the set, it’s hard for me to understand how she could have enforced any rules.

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**Author:** ![commasense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/commasense/32/3017_2.png) [@commasense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/commasense)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2484 "2024-01-23T14:57:40Z")

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She was guilty of mixing live ammo with blanks and dummy rounds, IIRC because she and other crew members were using some of the film guns for after-hours plinking. That should also not have been permitted. If there had been no live ammo on the set – and there was no official need for any – none of this would have happened.

I want to say that although I have nothing like @Cervaise’s experience, I was tangentially involved in the filmmaking business for decades, and was actually once on a set where a prop gun was used. (It was actually a recreation of the assassination of Lincoln, filmed in Ford’s Theatre.) It was the first time I had seen a film armorer at work, and I was very impressed with how serious the whole process was taken by everyone on the set.

So I agree with pretty much everything @Cervaise has said in his last few posts, especially about the unjustly light treatment Halls has gotten.

But if the armorer hadn’t brought live ammo to the set, Hutchins would still be alive.

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**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\
**Post date:** [January 23, 2024, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2485 "2024-01-23T16:49:29Z")

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Even with Halls’s negligence, the ultimate problem is live ammunition anywhere within 39½ miles of that set.

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**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\
**Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2486 "2024-01-25T18:01:36Z")

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It goes beyond that. The idea that someone blesses a gun and all responsibility falls on that person does not fulfill any kind of legitimate safety protocol. The entire crew has to be involved in the process.

This did not happen.

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**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\
**Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2487 "2024-01-25T18:15:24Z")

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> [@Magiver](#):
>
> It goes beyond that. The idea that someone blesses a gun and all responsibility falls on that person does not fulfill any kind of legitimate safety protocol. **The entire crew has to be involved in the process.** -

So the gopher who gets coffee for the director gets a turn at inspecting the weapon?  
The last person who handles (and inspects) the weapon before the actor should be the armorer.

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**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\
**Post date:** [January 25, 2024, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2488 "2024-01-25T19:16:46Z")

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> [@running\_coach](#):
>
> So the gopher who gets coffee for the director gets a turn at inspecting the weapon?  
> The last person who handles (and inspects) the weapon before the actor should be the armorer.

The people involved in the filming should be part of the process.

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