# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 127
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2529 "2024-02-04T00:57:37Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I think some fault (whether expressly “legal fault” or not) can be applied to whoever made the decision to keep the armorer off the set. If I’m a juror, that person has legal fault. That’s violating the rules, and the violation led to a death. Yeah, there were other fuck ups, too. But when the rules are good, it takes more than one error to kill someone. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2530 "2024-02-04T01:17:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > But when the rules are good, it takes more than one error to kill someone. Ideally, there are several layers of checks to make sure dangerous things are handled/done safely. But, in pursuit of cost cutting and saving a buck such redundant layers might be left out. That is where, I think, a producer might be held liable for some of what happened (not saying Baldwin did this…just in general). ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2531 "2024-02-04T04:11:28Z")
“No Guns” does not mean more rules. It means less rules. All the other rules about guns go away. It is far easier to enforce a single rule than the multiple rules that allow bringing real guns onto a movie set. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2532 "2024-02-04T05:48:16Z")
It is not a good idea to create habits of casual gun handling. And once a gun makes it past the one safety check, it’s an accident waiting to happen. It took a chain of failures and multiple rules violations here to allow that accident to happen. That, plus rarity of accidenta, is actually a sign that the rules are pretty good. And again, firearm accidenta are WAY down the list of on-set risks. Including risks of fatal accidents. Aircraft and helicopters and cars kill far more. Stuff dropping on people on a working set is always a hazard, as are the myriad electrical cables, pyrotechnics, rigging, yada yada. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2533 "2024-02-04T06:07:17Z")
Accidents. Not ‘accidenta’. Although that should be a word. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2534 "2024-02-04T12:09:07Z")
I think a distinction has to be made, if a cast member was shot and killed as part of a rehearsal or filmed scene obviously due to negligence that is one thing. But is there yet another layer of negligence here? How is it that the Director had a gun pointed at her by Baldwin in the first place? Is this part of the script? I doubt it. The very first reports of the incident that day were incomplete, but rumor control had it that Baldwin was getting a bit impatient with the pace and multiple rehearsal takes. “Oh, you want another take, huh?” Bang. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2535 "2024-02-04T13:00:04Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > How is it that the Director had a gun pointed at her by Baldwin in the first place? Is this part of the script? I doubt it. My understanding is that he was supposed to be drawing at the camera, so yes. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2536 "2024-02-04T13:28:22Z")
OK, but the camera didn’t get shot. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2537 "2024-02-04T13:35:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > It is not a good idea to create habits of casual gun handling. And once a gun makes it past the one safety check, it’s an accident waiting to happen. Guns don’t make it past a No Guns safety check. The casual gun handling is the idea of using a gun as a toy. That’s what a prop is in a movie, a toy for playing make believe. A ‘prop gun’ is a toy, can’t hurt anybody. This was not a ‘prop gun’, it was a real gun. There is absolutely no need to bring a real gun onto a movie set. Prop guns can’t hurt anyone. Baldwin shot and killed someone when he was playing with a real gun like it was a toy. “Everybody does it” is not an excuse. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2538 "2024-02-04T15:25:39Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > OK, but the camera didn’t get shot. Not surprised. He was doing a fast crossbody draw, to a position with the gun low at his side so he could fan the hammer. Zero precision in that move. ---
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2539 "2024-02-04T15:51:01Z")
Right - something he had absolutely no business doing whatsoever, no way no how. Real people are never in the line of fire (even if it’s a non-firing prop) for just this reason. There’s a fishing spot I go to. There is also a section of abandoned railroad track that is convenient to park. Well, the odds of me getting hit by a train on a section of abandoned track are highly remote. But I still won’t park on the tracks. Good habits are just that. It’s amazing to me how so many layers and instances of inept clown show fucked-up-edness have been revealed, and yet people want to defend this or handwave it away as some sort of “well these things happen”. It would be comical if it wasn’t so deadly. Some purported news stories characterized this with phrases “Baldwin, who was holding the gun that went off, blah blah blah” as if he were a spectator. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2540 "2024-02-04T16:19:14Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Right - something he had absolutely no business doing whatsoever, no way no how. Well, that was the scene direction. So he _had_ business doing that. First example that came to mind. 2:57 at this link. Check out our friend Bond. James Bond. > [@](#): > > Real people are never in the line of fire (even if it’s a non-firing prop) for just this reason. Say, have you ever seen a movie? A western? People are in the line of fire _all the time_. Sure in a lot of shots they can cheat that by aiming off a few degrees but there’s no shortage of closer scenes out there including, dunno, _dozens of times_ I’ve seen an actor hold a gun to another actor’s head. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2541 "2024-02-04T17:33:59Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > _dozens of times_ I’ve seen an actor hold a gun to another actor’s head. Yeah. I have to think that’s on the list of “stuff you never do in real life” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2542 "2024-02-04T17:35:03Z")
Unless it’s a prop gun that has no functionality. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2543 "2024-02-04T17:57:43Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > Well, the odds of me getting hit by a train on a section of abandoned track are highly remote. But I still won’t park on the tracks. Good habits are just that. And if you were an actor and the part required you to park your car on railroad tracks, you’d refuse, right? > [@Common\_Tater](#): > > It’s amazing to me how so many layers and instances of inept clown show fucked-up-edness have been revealed, and yet people want to defend this or handwave it away as some sort of “well these things happen”. Nobody is claiming that ‘these things happen’, people are saying that this happened because, as you pointed out, so many layers of safety weren’t working as they should have been. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2544 "2024-02-04T18:18:42Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > _dozens of times_ I’ve seen an actor hold a gun to another actor’s head. I did this myself, in fact. And I am getting really, really tired of repeating the same information over and over for people who don’t know how performance protocols are supposed to work. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2545 "2024-02-04T18:31:50Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > And I am getting really, really tired of repeating the same information over and over for people who don’t know how performance protocols are supposed to work. This thread is basically Groundhog Day. So many in this country are just deeply in love with their self image as amateur gun owners. They just can’t help themselves, they have an uncontrollable urge to give patronizing explanations of how gun safety works and how this would never happen on their watch. ---
**Author:** ![MagicEyes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5daacb/32.png) [@MagicEyes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MagicEyes)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2546 "2024-02-04T19:19:10Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Yeah. It was a big fuck-up not allowing the armorer on the set because of COVID. If they cleared everyone out who was not necessary for the filming on a scene that’s good-sense COVID protection. It’s just that whenever guns are on the set the armorer is 100% a critical crew member, just like director, cam operator, DP, and actors, etc. > > I think some fault (whether expressly “legal fault” or not) can be applied to whoever made the decision to keep the armorer off the set. I don’t recall if Gutierrez-Reed was union or not but it certainly would have be appropriate, IMO, for her to make a formal complaint and give very strong push-back to whoever kept her off the set. If nothing else she should have called her dad for help navigating the production politics. > > ISTM that knowing when you MUST put your foot down is something that a less-experienced employee may have trouble with. That comes with experience (but she should have known she needed to raise the alarm. I’m not sure this is accurate. According to Wikipedia, she checked the guns before placing them on a cart. The director was also supposed to check the guns after taking them off the cart according to safety protocol, but he didn’t check the gun thoroughly. It’s also on her that live rounds got mixed in with blanks. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2547 "2024-02-04T20:25:45Z")
> [@Pork\_Rind](#): > > First example that came to mind. 2:57 at this link. Check out our friend Bond. James Bond. Probably should have posted the link. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/I4fTKmbtu8E/maxresdefault.jpg "CASINO ROYALE | Opening scene") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4fTKmbtu8E) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2024, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2548 "2024-02-04T20:53:29Z")
> [@MagicEyes](#): > > I’m not sure this is accurate. According to Wikipedia, she checked the guns before placing them on a cart. I don’t understand which part you are saying may not be accurate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=126) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=128)