# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 131
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2609 "2024-02-24T20:17:06Z")
So we can talk about a “live cartridge”, “dummy cartridge” or “blank cartridge” (or synonymously “round”), indicating a cartridge case with various different contents, right? ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2610 "2024-02-24T20:48:39Z")
Seems okay to me. The real errors are when someone refers to the whole thing as a ‘bullet’, or who talk about something being hit by a .44 cartridge, or something like that. I think most people would use ‘round’ for those things most of the time. A blank round, a dummy round, I bought 50 rounds, etc. Usually when you hear shooters talking about cartridge casings it is in the context of reloading activities (not reloading the gun, but reloading the cartridge casings with fresh primers, powder, and bullets). But I’m not a huge gun guy. I’ve been around them all my life, but I don’t collect them or anything. This is strictly a laymen’s perspective. ---
**Author:** ![Tibby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tibby/32/17030_2.png) [@Tibby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tibby)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2611 "2024-02-24T22:02:18Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > They found several live rounds mixed in the box with the blanks. I have to admit they look similar. The rattle test is crucial to separate them. I haven’t been following this case for a while. But, if live ammo was found mixed in with dummy rounds onsite, has anyone involved with the case suggested that it may have been put there on purpose by a disgruntled employee with murderous intent, or just stupid enough to think it would cause mayhem, but not risk someone’s life? ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2024, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2612 "2024-02-24T23:23:10Z")
It’s possible, but I think more of us are inclined to think of Hanlon’s Razor: > _Never attribute to malice_ that which is adequately explained by stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2024, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2613 "2024-02-25T00:04:34Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > No, blanks with powder in them do not rattle. Yeah. A cartridge with powder and BBs is called a special thing: a shotshell; in pistol calibers, [snake shot](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snake_shot). In other words, a specific type of live round. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2024, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2614 "2024-02-25T02:44:05Z")
> [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > What we have here is an high profile industry that should be (and is) _safer_ than the typical job, because of heightened news coverage. There are other examples of this in our society. Flying as a passenger in an airplane was incredibly safe during the 1970s. But given the rise in air traffic, the aircraft industry recognized that air crashes could become monthly events in the decades to follow (at least somewhere in the world) and that would be bad for business. So they took a safe industry and made it ridiculously safe, in terms of risk per passenger. We like it that way. Read James Fallows to learn about aviation’s rigorous safety culture, backed by stringent governmental oversight. > > I don’t think prosecuting an actor for misuse of a firearm in this instance will appreciably enhance on set safety. I do think requiring movie studios to pay a fee (tax) that funds OSHA inspections and FAA-style investigations of safety incidents would improve safety. So that’s what we should do. > > OSHA - Occupational Safety and Health Administration, which regulates workplaces > FAA - Federal Aviation Administration I retract my recommendation. The FAA does a great job partly because there is industry-wide support for unusually high aircraft safety. Upon reflection, the same can’t be said of Hollywood. Sure, they would love to curb firearm deaths because of the bad press. But empowering OSHA would lead to greater regulation of general workplace safety on the set, something that doesn’t have the same consensus that lead to beefed up air safety. So the analogy fails. I do think that the Hollywood mucky-mucks should establish an armorer certification program. Currently [I understand there are no particular educational requirements](https://www.iatselocal52.org/Applications/PropArmorerJD.pdf). In practice this would involve paying them more. I suspect that would be acceptable. Another reform would be to have the armorer report directly to whomever is in charge of the production. Yes, I get that sometimes directors run the show, sometimes producers do. The point is to give them leeway _and the expectation_ to jump the chain of command if standards aren’t being met. Liability insurance standards could also be reviewed. Eventually armorer certification could be required by law, sort of like becoming a barber. This would garner industry support because it would enable the unionized sector to impose standards on the non-unionized sector. All opinions should be treated as hypotheses. I am not a movie director. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [February 27, 2024, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2615 "2024-02-27T05:38:14Z")
I didn’t have time to watch Mondays trial. I found these articles on the main witness testimony for Feb 26. Addiego was working in the church when the gun discharged. He gave first aid to, Joel Souza, the director while others helped Halyna Hutchins . > **[“Safety Seemed To Be Secondary,” ‘Rust’ Grip Tells Court Of Film At Armorer...](https://deadline.com/2024/02/rust-armorer-trial-latest-1235838920/)** > > "Safety Seemed To Be Secondary," 'Rust' Grip Tells Court Of Film At Armorer Hannah Gutierrez-Reed's Involuntary Manslaughter Trial > **[‘Rust’ Crew Member Gives Tearful Testimony: ‘I’m Hoping for Justice’](https://variety.com/2024/film/news/rust-ross-addiego-testimony-hannah-gutierrez-reed-1235923507/)** > > Ross Addiego, the dolly grip, recounted the horror of watching his friend get shot while filming "Rust" in 2021. > [@](#): > > He also faulted Gutierrez Reed for leaving guns and ammunition unsecured, saying she was nothing like the “uptight,” “anal retentive” armorers he had encountered over his 30-year career. > > “She wasn’t necessarily as serious or professional as I am accustomed to with the other armorers that I’m familiar with,” Addiego testified. “I don’t know that I’ve ever seen an armorer pull loose ammo out of a fanny pack.” ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2616 "2024-03-06T03:50:35Z")
> **[Expert in Old West firearms says gun wouldn't malfunction in fatal shooting...](https://apnews.com/article/alec-baldwin-trial-gun-malfunction-5dc6f4bebed83755c2f77583d5fd529d)** > > Courtroom testimony by an independent gun expert is casting new doubt on Alec Baldwin’s account that his gun went off without pulling the trigger in the fatal shooting of a cinematographer during a 2021 rehearsal on the set of the Western movie... > **[Production manager testifies about gun oversight in fatal shooting by Alec...](https://apnews.com/article/alec-baldwin-rust-movie-shooting-armorer-trial-971c073c87d9dffb351ae10d11afe895)** > > Jurors in a trial over the fatal movie-set shooting of a cinematographer by Alec Baldwin have heard in courtroom testimony that a manager increased oversight of firearm safety but was only partially aware of misfires in the days leading up to it. > **[Assistant director says armorer handed gun to Alec Baldwin before fatal...](https://apnews.com/article/witness-says-armorer-handed-baldwin-gun-639d0ff2ae7723f26063f39fc7292a7b)** > > Courtroom testimony from an assistant director in the fatal shooting of a cinematographer by Alec Baldwin is providing new details about a final safety check on a revolver and exactly who handed the gun to the actor. > **[Film director who was shot by Alec Baldwin says it felt like being hit by a...](https://apnews.com/article/alec-baldwin-set-shooting-c52410bc46cbe79dfef78601aec4d421)** > > A movie director who was shot by Alec Baldwin during a rehearsal has testified at trial that he was approaching the cinematographer when he heard a loud bang. > **[Ammo supplier says he provided no live rounds in fatal shooting of...](https://apnews.com/article/ammunition-supplier-testifies-baldwin-shooting-rust-511344673f08fb757024568d8c63c3e4)** > > A movie-ammunition supplier has testified at trial that he provided only inert dummy rounds without gunpowder to the Western movie “Rust,” where actor Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer during a 2021 rehearsal. > **[Workplace safety regulator says management failed in fatal shooting by Alec...](https://apnews.com/article/workplace-investigator-testifies-baldwin-shooting-f8a259bd9fc82b0594442bb067439873)** > > A workplace safety investigator says safety complaints by a movie armorer to managers went largely unheeded on the set of the Western movie “Rust,” where actor Alec Baldwin fatally shot a cinematographer. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2617 "2024-03-06T18:05:31Z")
The Defense rested this morning. They only called 4 witnesses. Thell Reed didn’t testify. I expected that he would explain Hannah’s training. I guess the defense didn’t think it would help. Nothing new came out in trial except the OSHA investigation and fine against Rust production. I did learn the DA investigated Seth Kenney and determined the 45 cal ammunition he had was different from the live rounds found on the Rust set. He was eliminated as a source. It’s up to the jury now. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2618 "2024-03-06T18:27:44Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Thell Reed didn’t testify. I expected that he would explain Hannah’s training. I guess the defense didn’t think it would help. I can’t see how it would help unless there was room to infer that she did everything right and a live round got into the gun anyway, through no fault of hers. Which seems like a non-starter: obviously she did something wrong, otherwise there wouldn’t have been real bullets in the gun, regardless of who put them there, regardless of where they came from, and regardless of how one ended up being discharged into two human beings on a film set. Otherwise, all his testimony would do—at best—is underscore just how grossly she failed to adhere to standards. At worst, the prosecution tears him apart on cross and makes him and his daughter both look like incompetent (and dangerous) buffoons who shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a film set or a gun, let alone be responsible for multiple guns on a film set. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2619 "2024-03-06T19:38:10Z")
It’s interesting that six month OSHA investigation found many violations that didn’t meet Motion Picture safety guidelines. Rust was fined the maximum (130k). They knew the crew was concerned about safety on Rust. It was one reason the camera crew quit. Production should have remedied the situation by either replacing Hannah or making her work under a more experienced armorer. The day they had two accidental misfires was clearly the time for Production to act. Is she criminally guilty for Halyna Hutchins death? I’m not sure how the jury will decide. There no question she was incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2620 "2024-03-06T19:52:17Z")
I hope this awful defense lawyer didn’t convince his client to reject a plea deal. He didn’t get anywhere cross examining witnesses, his own had little useful to say. I’m listening to his closing argument right now and it’s pathetic. On a jury I’d have a hard time finding her not guilty. She clearly did not do her job to ensure gun safety on the set, witnesses testified to this and there substantial photographic evidence of that as well. I think the jury won’t convict her on the charge of hiding evidence related to a little bag of cocaine. The state had no credible evidence that there was cocaine or even if it was that it was relevant to the matter at hand. On every other matter I think the state has made her look like an incompetent and thoughtless armorer and the shooting was an inevitable event. Despite the defense trying to say she is being scapegoated the jury is aware that Alec Baldwin has also been charged because of his failures of responsibility as a producer and actor handling firearms. ---
**Author:** ![Ynnad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/4491bb/32.png) [@Ynnad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ynnad)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2621 "2024-03-06T20:17:41Z")
DId anybody see the news article this morning about the **defense** ’s expert witness being admonished by the judge for pointing a revolver at the judge before demonstrating to the judge and everyone else that it was unloaded. The article was in the Santa Fe New Mexican. That had to be a very serious “oh crap” moment for the defense attorneys. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2622 "2024-03-06T20:22:29Z")
Was he by any chance Clement Vallandigham? ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2623 "2024-03-06T21:15:13Z")
> [@Ynnad](#): > > DId anybody see the news article this morning about the **defense** ’s expert witness being admonished by the judge for pointing a revolver at the judge before demonstrating to the judge and everyone else that it was unloaded. The article was in the Santa Fe New Mexican. > > That had to be a very serious “oh crap” moment for the defense attorneys. Yeah, when your “expert” demonstrates incompetence and negligence that freaks the judge out, you just lost what credibility you might have had, if that was the best you could do for a witness. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2624 "2024-03-06T21:18:45Z")
[Video here.](https://youtu.be/Y9t6uaXwRGY) Hope they didn’t pay this guy much. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2625 "2024-03-06T22:08:42Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Hope they didn’t pay this guy much. I only saw the part of the cross linked in that video. I don’t think the cross was devastating. I don’t know know about this guys qualifications, but he held up fine on cross examination. ---
**Author:** ![Seanette](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/seanette/32/9139_2.png) [@Seanette](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Seanette)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2626 "2024-03-06T22:11:29Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > I only saw the part of the cross linked in that video. I don’t think the cross was devastating. I don’t know know about this guys qualifications, but he held up fine on cross examination. Except for putting his own competence and qualification to even be there in serious doubt. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2627 "2024-03-06T22:24:18Z")
> [@Seanette](#): > > Yeah, when your “expert” demonstrates incompetence and negligence “No, no, it’s OK. I know what I’m doing.” ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [March 6, 2024, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2628 "2024-03-06T23:13:07Z")
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