# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 133
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2649 "2024-03-07T06:42:46Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Blithely dismissing OSHA findings by saying “OSHA doesn’t do criminal investigations” is disingenuous at best. Does that mean that since they don’t do criminal investigations, OSHA findings have never once come up in any criminal case ever? That would seem to defy credulity. No. It means very simply that OSHA doesn’t look for criminal responsibility. They make determinations about workplace safety. > [@](#): > > What we have here is a case where OSHA came to conclusions in direct opposition to what the DA has concluded. Once again, different contexts for the investigations so they could not be in direct opposition. OSHA found Gutierrez did not follow proper safety practices. OSHA and the state found differences in matter of fact because OSHA did not have information from the criminal investigation. In particular, while OSHA accepted Hannah Gutierrez’ claim that she was not given enough time to perform her duties as armorer the state found through evidence OSHA did not have that in fact she had more than enough time to perform her duties as armorer but did not. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2650 "2024-03-07T07:34:34Z")
I really haven’t been following any of this and probably the question I’m about to ask has been answered previously but I’m too lazy to read the 2641 posts in this thread. Is there any known explanation as to why any live rounds were on the set at all? Was it just sheer idiocy by somebody or were they actually doing some filming that fired required the firing of live rounds? I’m just finding the whole idea of having live rounds on the set _at all_ baffling. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2651 "2024-03-07T11:59:00Z")
Kenney testified that he and Thell Reed had setup a shooting range for the cast of _1883_. It was completely separate from the movie set. Kenney testified he took a box of live rounds from that day back to his business. The police took that box during a Search warrant and concluded it didn’t match the live rounds found on _Rust_. Thell Reed also took back ammo and some holster belts from _1883_. We don’t know if the police searched his storage. Hannah said in a police interview (played in court) that she brought the holster belts to _Rust_ for props. She also had a box of dummies from Thell. That’s why the DA said in closing that Hannah was the source for the live rounds found on Rust’s set. But it’s not entirely conclusive. Thell would have _complete boxes of live rounds_. How 4 or 5 live rounds got on _Rust_ probably won’t ever be totally proven. The warrant on Kenney’s business was executed a month after the accident. He could have easily covered up evidence. No one will ever know. The prosecution’s expert Armorer testified Hannah should have inventoried and checked the dummies when they came on set. Then checked them again each time the guns were loaded with dummies. redundancy prevents accidents. I was very impressed with that Armorer. He enforces all the gun safety rules on set. Doesn’t matter if it’s a cold gun. The muzzle has to be controlled and not pointed at anyone. _Except_ briefly during actual filming. That’s only if required in the script. Even then the gun is pointed to the side of the actor and the armorer clears any crew from standing in that area. I can see why the jury convicted Hannah. Her failure to check those rounds _every time_ the guns were loaded caused the fatal accident. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2652 "2024-03-07T12:15:12Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > In any case, I think the charges against Baldwin specifically are absurd. Both the ones that were dropped and the ones that are now being argued. Well, we’ll find out soon enough whether or not a jury agrees with you. They said his trial starts in a few days. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2653 "2024-03-07T12:21:20Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > She is absolutely the one to blame over both the AD _and_ Baldwin. > > That said, I am torn on whether Baldwin is guilty. I don’t disagree. But I think Baldwin and the AD share at least _some_ of the blame. There needs to be redundant safety mechanisms, else there can be a single point of failure: Safety Layer #1: armorer verifys there’s no live ammo. Safety Layer #2: AD checks the gun. Safety Layer #3: Baldwin must not point the gun directly at someone and squeeze the trigger. Had any _one_ of those safety layers been effective, Hutchins would be alive today. But amazingly, _all three failed_. The odds of this happening are very low, which is a strong indication of major problems on the set. So are all three safety layers of equal importance? If not, which of the three is most important? I don’t know. I would think Safety Layer #1 should be most important, since “firearms” is the armorer’s primary job. I consider the other two as necessary - but secondary - failsafes. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2654 "2024-03-07T12:33:03Z")
So the short answer is that details are obscure but broadly the people involved had a life that mixed acting with play guns and playing with real guns. And the predictable result ensued. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2655 "2024-03-07T13:24:59Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > So are all three safety layers of equal importance? If not, which of the three is most important? I don’t know. I would think Safety Layer #1 should be most important, since “firearms” is the armorer’s primary job. I consider the other two as necessary - but secondary - failsafes Ultimately it comes.down to checking each round as it’s loaded. Everything else can fail and you’ll prevent the accident at this step. It takes maturity to check,double check, and triple. check our work. A armorer can never say _I shook these rounds before lunch_. They have to be checked each time they’re loaded. Lives depends on it. A 22 year old doesn’t have that discipline and maturity. They need more experience. They need a supervisor/mentor to watch and check behind inexperienced sttaff. Correct bad habits. ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2656 "2024-03-07T14:36:05Z")
Gutierrez-Reed has been found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. She faces up to 18 months in prison. Gift Link: [https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/06/arts/rust-armorer-convicted-alec-baldwin-shooting.html?unlocked\_article\_code=1.a00.6AVo.EpF-nYY6cQMw&smid=url-share](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/06/arts/rust-armorer-convicted-alec-baldwin-shooting.html?unlocked_article_code=1.a00.6AVo.EpF-nYY6cQMw&smid=url-share) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2657 "2024-03-07T18:31:27Z")
There have been extensive discussions in this thread about an Armorers duties on set. Bryan Carpenter has worked on many action films with semi automatic weapons. I was surprised at how seriously armoers take their duties and the authority they have on set. His testimony is worth the time to watch. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3nJ8iD3LGeE/maxresdefault.jpg "Alec Baldwin's 'Rust' Armorer Failed to Do Her Job Before Deadly Shooting: Firearm Safety Expert") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nJ8iD3LGeE) ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2658 "2024-03-07T22:05:34Z")
A useful article on how the bullets got onto the set; the prosecutor believes Ms. Gutierrez-Reed provided them: > One of the prosecution’s key pieces of evidence was an iPhone photo of Ms. Gutierrez-Reed in which she is holding a gun and has a tray of ammunition sitting on her lap. Sarah Zachry, the head of props on “Rust,” [testified that she took the photo](https://www.youtube.com/live/b31sF9TcZMs?si=6rRSbJyMvzUCAtdS&t=28234) on Oct. 10 to ensure they were maintaining continuity on the production with regard to props. The prosecution argued that at least two rounds visible in the tray on her lap, which have distinctive silver-colored primers, were live rounds. And they said that the fact that the photo was taken on Oct. 10 — two days before the production got more .45-caliber Long Colt dummy rounds from the film’s main supplier, Mr. Kenney — suggested that those live rounds had come from Ms. Gutierrez-Reed. In her closing arguments, Ms. Morrissey compared the Styrofoam bullet tray shown on Ms. Gutierrez-Reed’s lap with a photo of the Styrofoam bullet tray that was taken out of the box of ammunition that Lieutenant Benavidez retrieved after the shooting. She argued that both photos showed the same tray, and pointed out that one of the rounds — one with a silver primer, which the F.B.I. later determined was a live round — was “in the exact same position” as in the earlier photo. > **[What the ‘Rust’ Jury Heard About How Live Rounds Got on a Film Set](https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/07/movies/rust-live-ammunition.html)** > > The prosecution pointed to a photo of the film’s armorer, arguing she had brought the live rounds. Her lawyers tried to focus attention on the movie’s primary ammunition supplier. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [March 7, 2024, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2659 "2024-03-07T22:17:05Z")
One thing worth pointing out about all this is just how confused the story has been. There’s a lesson in here about trying to understand events from media reports. There are a bunch of us here who have been following this story for years, but I’ll bet if you asked five participants to describe their understanding of what exactly happened you’ll get five different answers. This is not the fault of anyone here, it’s the result of bad reporting, group dynamics, misinformation, yada yada. For example, there was a recent report that the armorer was the one who actually handed the gun to Baldwin. I don’t know if that’s true, but if it is, then we spent YEARS debating why the AD was involved in handling the gun, because it wass an assumed fact. We talked about Covid protocols, etc. And if it’s not the case and the armorer wasn’t there, why did that story come out? A planted story from the prosecution or defense? Early on there was a claim that people were shooting the guns at lunch for fun, as an explanation for how the live rounds got into the movie gun. But then we heard that this was NOT the case, and the ‘target shooting for fun’ story went away. Now it turns out they WERE target shooting at some point. The whole thing has just been a confused mess. I assume we had lawyers for both sides seeding the media with spin, poor reporters reporting hearsay as fact, etc. You would think the basic facts of this would be obvious and open-and-shut. Things like who handed the gun to Baldwin, what checks were done, whether he was behaving responsibly with the gun, etc. But nope. It’s been confused from day one. There were even conflicting reports on prior accidental discharges on set. Imagine how hard it is to find the truth on really complex topics that are highly politically or legally charged, where thousands of people are literally employed to confuse the public and help hide the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2660 "2024-03-08T05:22:40Z")
Yeah the NYT read my mind – I asked my question and within a few hours they published a detailed article on the exact subject. I guess I wasn’t the only one wondering. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2661 "2024-03-08T05:32:09Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The whole thing has just been a confused mess. I assume we had lawyers for both sides seeding the media with spin, poor reporters reporting hearsay as fact, etc. Being a lawyer who has been involved in several incidents of sufficient notoriety to hit the media, I strongly recommend you apply Hanlon’s Razor. ---
**Author:** ![Skypist](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skypist/32/169_2.png) [@Skypist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skypist)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2662 "2024-03-08T14:42:23Z")
I was under the impression that the AD had changed his story about who handed the gun to Baldwin, but maybe I’m wrong and his story was always the same. It sounds like there was ample opportunity for the production’s lawyers to get in there and coach eyewitnesses, and maybe for evidence to be “lost.” I think the prosecution did prove that HGR was negligent. But the footage shown of Baldwin saying “right away, right away” regarding reloading weapons makes me think he was careless, too. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2024, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2663 "2024-03-08T14:58:55Z")
That’s an excellent video. That guy’s a real pro. I learned a lot. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2024, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2664 "2024-03-13T02:27:01Z")
The Rust saga continues. Baldwin has already settled with Halyna Hutchins’ family. Link [Alec Baldwin settles lawsuit with family of cinematographer killed on 'Rust' set](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/crime-courts/alec-baldwin-settles-lawsuit-family-cinematographer-killed-rust-set-rcna50823) Link [https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/judge-temporarily-suspends-alec-baldwin-222754826.html](https://uk.movies.yahoo.com/judge-temporarily-suspends-alec-baldwin-222754826.html) > [@](#): > > A judge has ruled that US actor Alec Baldwin will not A have to give sworn evidence in a civil lawsuit until after his involuntary manslaughter trial. > > The lawsuit, filed by three crew members from the film set Rust, claims Baldwin and his production company El Dorado Pictures caused “emotional distress” as a result of negligence following the death of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [March 15, 2024, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2665 "2024-03-15T17:26:24Z")
> **[Alec Baldwin seeks dismissal of grand jury indictment in fatal shooting of...](https://apnews.com/article/baldwin-wants-indictment-dismissed-fatal-shooting-4862eabf74c8121c188a6684dd286f2b)** > > Defense attorneys for Alec Baldwin urged a New Mexico judge to dismiss a grand jury indictment against the actor in the fatal shooting of a cinematographer on the set of the Western movie “Rust.” ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2024, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2666 "2024-04-09T16:35:19Z")
The prosecutor explains why she’s pursuing felony charges against Baldwin. Alec’s salty language is well known. He left a phone message to his daughter back in the 90’s that became public. Also his interactions with the paparazzi are usually quite heated. > **[Alec Baldwin Had ‘Absolutely No Control’ Over His Emotions on ‘Rust’ Set,...](https://variety.com/2024/biz/news/alec-baldwin-rust-no-control-changed-story-prosecutor-alleges-1235964050/)** > > A prosecutor laid out the case against Alec Baldwin in detail, arguing that he has repeatedly changed his story about the death of Halyna Hutchins. > [@](#): > > According to earlier filings in the case, Baldwin was offered the same terms as were extended to Dave Halls, the first assistant director who received unsupervised probation, and no jail time, after pleading to negligent handling of a deadly weapon. > > In the filing, Morrissey said she made the offer “reluctantly,” but with the “intention of ensuring that similarly situated defendants do not receive disparate treatment.” ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2024, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2667 "2024-04-09T16:48:08Z")
I think this part of the statement by the prosecutor is very significant, and will be considered indicia of guilt. > [@](#): > > …and that he “shamelessly lied” and repeatedly changed his story after accidentally shooting the film’s cinematographer. His emotional behavior is not rare on movie sets and doesn’t make him look good in terms of interference with safety rules. However, at least for me, someone who tries to cover up their behavior looks much worse. He can apologize for his behavior on the set but his statements after the fact were quite deliberate and can’t be waved away. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2024, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2668 "2024-04-09T17:37:58Z")
The prosecution used behind the scenes footage in the armorer trial. They probably have footage showing Alec’s hot temper on the set. I agree it’s not unusual for actors to be temperamental. It will be embarrassing if the camera caught a meltdown. His biggest error is insisting that he didn’t pull the trigger. It’s been established (in the armorer trial) the gun didn’t fire itself. Experts testified it didn’t have a hair trigger. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=132) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=134)