# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 136
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2024, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2709 "2024-04-11T23:27:42Z")
Well _I’ve_ certainly been saying it, and, strictly speaking, it’s technically correct. The best kind of correct, really. But, as I have also said, industry standards may be strong evidence of what a reasonable person would do, which is generally what negligence comes down to. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2710 "2024-04-12T00:38:32Z")
To be clear, are you saying that the industrial standards for negligence don’t matter and that it’s what counts as negligence in the state? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2711 "2024-04-12T00:46:48Z")
I’m saying that industry doesn’t make law. Industry standards are _evidence_ of what a reasonable person might do (and that, generally, is what the law of negligence is about: what a reasonable person might do), but the law is not bound by industry standards. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2712 "2024-04-12T01:01:15Z")
OK, so this is a “technical” argument rather than what actually will be used in the trial. In the Gutierrez-Reed trial, the prosecutor presented an expert witness to testify what the industry standards are and why those standards were not being followed in _Rust_ and directly linked that as evidence of Gutierrez-Reed guilt. As they didn’t use your arguments, then that debate seems more of a theoretical GD discussion. As someone who got sucked into the armorer’s trial, and will likely follow Baldwin’s trial, I’ll stick to the issues relevant to this case. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2713 "2024-04-12T11:15:53Z")
20 posts were split to a new topic: [Safety, industry standards, law, and regulation (hijack from baldwin thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/safety-industry-standards-law-and-regulation-hijack-from-baldwin-thread/1000191) ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2731 "2024-04-12T02:30:28Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > It’s cool the twenty-something we’ve got acting as a part-time armorer told the AD to tell you it’s okay.” Nah. It’s not cool (but i know you were being sarcastic). A women is dead because the armorer and the AD fucked up in a very big way. Baldwin of course was just doing his job. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2734 "2024-04-12T10:28:38Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > A women is dead because the armorer and the AD fucked up in a very big way. Baldwin of course was just doing his job. It’s not a given that Baldwin was “just doing his job.” In my post above, 2697, I detailed a number of items which the prosecutors have argued in the Gutierrez-Reed trial that Baldwin was negligent. As I wrote in that post, the prosecutors believe that both the armorer and Baldwin are at fault. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2735 "2024-04-12T11:16:55Z")
Moderating: About 20 posts hijacking this thread have been moved to > [@Safety, industry standards, law, and regulation (hijack from baldwin thread)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/safety-industry-standards-law-and-regulation-hijack-from-baldwin-thread/1000191): > > Wow. Thanks. But,… you know what, I’m gonna keep on saying it: if yours is the attitude typical of the layperson, there is so much more at stake here than just whether Alec Baldwin is guilty of manslaughter. What is at stake, it seems, is whether Americans believe that laws are made by legislatures and judges accountable to We the People, or whether industry makes its own laws, which we mere humans must simply abide by. That thought frankly scares me. I don’t know why it doesn’t scare you. I… Please try to stick to breaking news relevant discussion in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2736 "2024-04-12T11:21:19Z")
> [@TokyoBayer](#): > > n my post above, 2697, I detailed a number of items which the prosecutors have argued in the Gutierrez-Reed trial that Baldwin was negligent. Part of that post: > [@TokyoBayer](#): > > Back to the response by the prosecution: They continue on to assert that on the day of the shooting, the rehearsal was supposed to only be Baldwin slowly drawing his gun, but he went off script, taking actions contrary to instructions by the director. He pointed the single action army revolver at Ms. Hutchins, cocked the hammer and pulled the trigger. (Baldwin contests these assertions, claiming he was directed to do this.) Reports at the time were that he was rehearsing a scene where he cross draws (is that the term?) to point the gun at the camera. Also multiple people (Baldwin and the guy standing right next to him) say he did not pull the trigger. That he was practicing the cross draw and trying to get the action correct when the gun went off. This prosecution claim seems to be their own and not based on any witness account of what happened. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2737 "2024-04-12T13:12:38Z")
> [@EllisDee](#): > > Reports at the time were that he was rehearsing a scene where he cross draws (is that the term?) to point the gun at the camera. Also multiple people (Baldwin and the guy standing right next to him) say he did not pull the trigger. That he was practicing the cross draw and trying to get the action correct when the gun went off. > > This prosecution claim seems to be their own and not based on any witness account of what happened. They will have to present evidence for any such claims at his trial. IANAL, but it’s my understanding that the prosecution cannot make claims in either their opening or closing arguments that are not supported by evidence. Obviously, the defense can present their contradictory evidence and then it will be up to the jury to decide which they believe. As far as Baldwin’s claim that he didn’t pull the trigger, evidence was introduced at the Gutierrez-Reed trial that the gun could not have discharged without pulling the trigger. Here is [an article](https://www.deccanherald.com/world/new-analysis-of-rust-gun-finds-alec-baldwin-must-have-pulled-trigger-2-2650295) from prior to the trial: > [@](#): > > A forensics expert hired to examine the gun that discharged while Alec Baldwin was rehearsing with it on the set of the film Rust in New Mexico, killing the movie’s cinematographer, has issued a new report that determined the actor must have pulled the trigger. A FBI forensics expert testified a Gutierrez’s trial that the gun could not have malfunctioned as Baldwin claims. It’s typical for there to be conflicting claims, which is why we have trials in which evidence is introduced, including sworn testimony. A jury heard evidence again the armorer and conviced her. Baldwin will have his day in court, and we will see what happens then. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2738 "2024-04-12T14:35:47Z")
> [@](#): > > A forensics expert hired to examine the gun that discharged while Alec Baldwin was rehearsing with it on the set of the film Rust in New Mexico, killing the movie’s cinematographer, has issued a new report that determined the actor must have pulled the trigger. I feel like every time someone mentions the whole ‘they tested the gun’ thing, it should also be mentioned that they broke the gun in the process of testing it. They then proved that the gun, fitted with brand new parts, couldn’t be fired without pulling the trigger. > **[FBI analyst describes damage to Alec Baldwin's 'Rust' gun in armorer criminal...](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2024-02-26/fbi-analyst-damage-to-alec-baldwin-rust-gun)** > > An FBI analyst testified Monday that Alec Baldwin's "Rust" prop gun was functioning when he received it. Baldwin's involuntary manslaughter trial will begin with jury selection July 9. > Ziegler said he used the rawhide mallet to strike the gun > During that test, he broke several components of the gun. The fractured parts included the tip of the trigger, the sear and the hammer. > That expert, Lucien C. Haag, studied the gun and rebuilt it with new parts. “The trigger had to be pulled or depressed sufficiently to release the fully cocked or retracted hammer of the evidence revolver,” > **[New firearms report casts doubt on Alec Baldwin's 'Rust' account](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2023-08-15/rust-alec-baldwin-firearms-report-trigger-pulled)** > > Alec Baldwin maintains he didn't pull the trigger, but a firearms report said the trigger 'had to be pulled or depressed sufficiently' to discharge. > The FBI report said that during testing, analysts could not fire the gun when the hammer was cocked, unless they pulled the trigger. However, the report did note that when the hammer was in the “rest” position, _the gun could fire “without a pull of the trigger_ when the hammer was struck directly” by another object. My emphasis I don’t know enough about all this, but when they broke the gun, I figured that would have been the end of this. Even then, ISTM, that they could get the gun to fire without pulling the trigger, IMO, means “it won’t fire unless the trigger is pulled” is a false statement. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2739 "2024-04-12T16:41:42Z")
It is absolutely mind boggling that they could destroy the evidence, and then test the thing they recreated claiming that such says anything about what the gun would or would not do before they destroyed (tampered with) it. Yeah we destroyed the rape kit but we put new semen on it and have proven the rapist could not be the accused. But what is the story they want believed? Imagine that they tested the gun before it was tampered with and it showed it would not have gone off on its own. Why did he, in their minds, perform a reckless act of intentionally pulling the trigger? Baldwin intentionally pulled the trigger when not instructed to because he thought it would funny to scare the crew having the blank go off, prankster that he is? That’s a hard thing to prove. Or to get anyone to believe is remotely likely. Is there any believable, let alone provable, scenario under which he pulled the trigger with intent? ---
**Author:** ![Wheelz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wheelz/32/5718_2.png) [@Wheelz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wheelz)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2740 "2024-04-12T16:54:52Z")
The defendant claimed that his brakes failed before the collision. While inspecting the brakes, a mechanic broke the master cylinder. He replaced it with a new master cylinder, then determined that the brakes were in proper working condition. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2741 "2024-04-12T17:06:46Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Imagine that they tested the gun before it was tampered with and it showed it would not have gone off on its own. I’m pretty sure this is why it broke. They were trying to find a way to make it fire without pulling the trigger, and the gun broke before it would fire. I get that Baldwin doesn’t think he pulled the trigger. He pulled the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2742 "2024-04-12T18:02:23Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I get that Baldwin doesn’t think he pulled the trigger. He pulled the trigger. Does it really matter if he pulled the trigger or not? There was no live ammo on the set, right?\* and he was told that the professional responsible for prop gun safety had cleared the prop for use.\*\* The only thing you can say about Baldwin vis-a-vis the trigger pull is he may have either lied about it or was honestly mistaken about it. Either way, it’s in NO WAY his fault for the DP’s death because how could he have even imagined that a pro would fuck up her job so completely. It’s like saying it would be the pit crew’s fault if at a professional auto race the wheel lug nuts the crew were supplied with had faulty threading and a wheel came off resulting in a fatal crash, \*Wrong. There was and that’s not Baldwin’s responsibility unless it can be shown that he brought the live ammo onto the set. \*\* This "professional did not do her job. She failed miserably and that resulted in a death. Not Baldwin’s responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2743 "2024-04-12T18:42:03Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > Does it really matter if he pulled the trigger or not? Yes, if he, for some reason did it with intent. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2744 "2024-04-12T18:53:25Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yes, if he, for some reason did it with intent. Intent to make the gun go _click_? If it can be demonstrated that he wanted to frighten someone by being irresponsible with the gun, I’d listen to that evidence, but boy, you have a tall road to climb to make me think someone holding what is supposed to be a cold inoperable prop can intend to cause harm by pulling the trigger. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2745 "2024-04-12T19:51:10Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m pretty sure this is why it broke. They were trying to find a way to make it fire without pulling the trigger, and the gun broke before it would fire. > > I get that Baldwin doesn’t think he pulled the trigger. He pulled the trigger. From the article linked a few posts up: > However, the report did note that when the hammer was in the “rest” position, the gun could fire “without a pull of the trigger when the hammer was struck directly” by another object. Either the gun could fire without the trigger being pulled or it can’t. It sounds to me like it can. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2746 "2024-04-12T20:35:08Z")
> [@Joey\_P](#): > > I don’t know enough about all this, but when they broke the gun, I figured that would have been the end of this. Even then, ISTM, that they could get the gun to fire without pulling the trigger, IMO, means “it won’t fire unless the trigger is pulled” is a false statement. True. The original gun, well used and old, may have been defective, so rebuilding it then saying “See the proves it” is bogus. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2024, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2747 "2024-04-12T20:50:42Z")
I would expect the defense will have at least one gun expert who can hammer that point home, and explain how the gun could indeed have fired without a trigger pull based on its condition before damage and repairs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=135) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=137)