# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21}

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Tags:** breaking-news\
**Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 142

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**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 12:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2848 "2024-07-12T12:10:52Z")

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Read what I was replying to.

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**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2849 "2024-07-12T12:11:00Z")

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[Moderating]

> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> For fuck’s sake, you must be doing this on purpose now. I’m done.

I can’t see any way to read this but as an accusation of trolling. That is not permitted outside of the Pit. That will earn you a Warning. If you believe that someone is trolling, report their post and then remain silent.

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**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2850 "2024-07-12T12:13:37Z")

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> [@echoreply](#):
>
> > [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
> >
> > skepticism of industry’s ability to self-regulate (such as by being relied upon to develop its own safety standards
> 
> The problem here was not the industry rules, the problem was this production not following the industry rules.

You could, by way of analogy, use the same logic to endorse abstinence-only sex education.

“If only they’d have just followed the rules, there’d be no teen pregnancy and no STDs.”

But that’s nevertheless a point I am interested to see the prosecution try and make, because even though the prosecution has already made clear that industry rules aren’t binding as law (eta: here, I am referring to a statement they made pre-trial, [which I highlighted earlier in the thread](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2768)), I do seem to recall there being at least a suggestion that not everyone agrees that the rule in the industry is that the actor has no independent responsibility to verify a weapon is safe (no live rounds inserted) before pointing it at someone. Or even that an actor can point a weapon at someone at all unless it is absolutely required by the production.

It really is an onion layer available to the prosecution:

1. Industry doesn’t make laws, New Mexico makes laws, and those laws were violated here
2. On top of that, even by industry standards, which the defense erroneously insists deprive an actor of independent responsibility to verify a weapon is safe before handling it around others, Baldwin is culpable because he did not independently verify the weapon was safe before handling it around others.
3. On top of that, even by industry standards, which the defense erroneously insists allow an actor to point a gun at someone even when it’s not absolutely required by the production, Baldwin is culpable because he did just that: pointed a gun at someone when not absolutely required by the production.
4. Similar argument for pulling the trigger (which I recognize is a disputed fact in its own right and which I think is the absolutely weakest argument to rely on).

From what I could see of the Day 2 trial summary, the prosecution hasn’t yet trotted out an expert or experts to lay out evidence of what they think the controlling rules for mock-gunfighters are. I really do think that will be the definitive issue at trial: what rules should Baldwin have actually followed to avoid criminal liability for negligence?

And of course, strategically, I realize the prosecution might not want to push the full onion, because it might strike the jury as a bit disingenuous to argue “First, you should find him guilty because X. But even if you don’t think X, you should find him guilty because Y. But even if…” and so on. At some point, I can imagine the jury rolling their eyes and thinking, _Okay, but what actually happened?_

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2851 "2024-07-12T12:37:01Z")

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> [@Joey\_P](#):
>
> Ignoring the movie aspect of this… It is illegal to point a gun at someone, even if you don’t pull the trigger. At least in my state it’s a misdemeanor to “intentionally point a firearm at or toward another”.

That doesn’t seem to matter in this case because the standard isn’t necessarily if the action was illegal. [Cite](https://www.newmexicolegalgroup.com/criminal-defense/new-mexico-manslaughter-charges/).

> [@](#):
>
> ## Involuntary Manslaughter
> 
> Involuntary manslaughter is the unintentional killing of a person while committing a misdemeanor criminal offense. Involuntary manslaughter can also occur _if a person is engaging in a lawful act but unintentionally kills someone by being negligent or not exercising due care_. Involuntary manslaughter is classified as a fourth-degree felony with sentencing up to 18 months in prison and probation.

My emphasis.

There is [a statute](https://law.justia.com/codes/new-mexico/2011/chapter30/article7/section30-7-4/) concerning negligent use of a deadly weapon:

> [@](#):
>
> **30-7-4. Negligent use of a deadly weapon.**
> 
> A. Negligent use of a deadly weapon consists of:
> 
> (1) discharging a firearm into any building or vehicle or so as to knowingly endanger a person or his property;
> 
> (2) carrying a firearm while under the influence of an intoxicant or narcotic;
> 
> (3) _endangering the safety of another by handling or using a firearm or other deadly weapon in a negligent manner;_ or
> 
> (4) discharging a firearm within one hundred fifty yards of a dwelling or building, not including abandoned or vacated buildings on public lands during hunting seasons, without the permission of the owner or lessees thereof.
> 
> B. The provisions of Paragraphs (1), (3) and (4) of Subsection A of this section shall not apply to a peace officer or other public employee who is required or authorized by law to carry or use a firearm in the course of his employment and who carries, handles, uses or discharges a firearm while lawfully engaged in carrying out the duties of his office or employment.
> 
> C. The exceptions from criminal liability provided for in Subsection B of this section shall not preclude or affect civil liability for the same conduct.
> 
> Whoever commits negligent use of a deadly weapon is guilty of a petty misdemeanor.

My emphasis. This would be a lesser included offense in the charge of involuntary manslaughter.

The question would have to be what constitutes “endangering the safety of another by handling or using a firearm or other deadly weapon in a negligent manner.” More about that later.

> [@ASL\_v2.0](#):
>
> From what I could see of the Day 2 trial summary, the prosecution hasn’t yet trotted out an expert or experts to lay out evidence of what they think the controlling rules for mock-gunfighters are. I really do think that will be the definitive issue at trial: what rules should Baldwin have actually followed to avoid criminal liability for negligence?

This indeed will be the difinitive issue at this trial.

In the trial for the amorer, they had a ~~a hired gun~~ expert witness who coverned that in detail, and we can expect him to go over the same things.

In Gutierrez-Reed’s trial, the defense was not concerned about Baldwin’s actions so their (extremely poor) expert witness didn’t address this, but this will be the heart of the case.

As I posted back in April;

> [@TokyoBayer](#):
>
> The prosecutors’ case depends on their ability to demonstrate that Baldwin’s actions didn’t follow industry standards. In Hannah Gutierrez-Reed’s trial, video evidence was shown and an expert witness, a professional armorer, provided commentary pointing out the dangerous deviations. For example, extras were waving guns around or using guns to point while they talked.
> 
> Note that these guns were assumed to “safe”, yet still best practice says you don’t point guns at people unnecessarily.
> 
> The expert witness pointed out that typically there are two types of ammo used on sets, dummy rounds which are designed to look like live round but don’t have any gunpowder and don’t have a working primer, and blank rounds which do have gunpowder but don’t have a bullet.
> 
> Firing blank rounds can be dangerous and there are circumstances where people have been injured or killed.
> 
> Because of this, film industry standards requires actors to folllow specific gun safety requirement, and the prosecution case says that Badwin didn’t follow those.
> 
> Durring the Gutierrez-Reed trial a video was shown of Baldwin discharging his weapon, loaded with blanks, in a scene but after the director had called “cut.” According to the expert, none of these were acceptable practices.
> 
> In a video by a defense attorney breaking down the prosecutors’ response to Baldwin’s motion to dismiss, the response says that “Mr. Baldwin was inattentive during this [firearm] training and spent time during the training on the phone with his family and making videos of himself shooting the fun for his family’s enjoyment.
> 
> The [YouTube video](https://youtu.be/58SE6nTb5QU?si=SRlBLQ5Ynz3ZC5LS&t=441) shows two videos provided as evidence in this case against Baldwin, allegedly of Baldwin shooting blanks during training while being filmed by bystanders on their cellphones.
> 
> The attorney’s reaction.
> 
> > [@](#):
> >
> > When I actually say what he was doing, it made me lose my goddamn mind. It made me lose my mind because he’s playing with the guns and this is not a film set. they’re not this is not like filming. There’s people recording this on cell phone cameras. Guns ain’t toys and he’s firing this at very close distance to those people who are filming it. I mean he’s aiming it away from them but he’s firing it at very close distance. I was just like “Oh my God.
> 
> He goes on to explain that while he isn’t a film armorer, he has spoken to many professional armorers and says this action speaks badly for both Gutierrez-Reed and Baldwin.
> 
> Back to the response by the prosecution: They continue on to assert that on the day of the shooting, the rehearsal was supposed to only be Baldwin slowly drawing his gun, but he went off script, taking actions contrary to instructions by the director. He pointed the single action army revolver at Ms. Hutchins, cocked the hammer and pulled the trigger. (Baldwin contests these assertions, claiming he was directed to do this.)
> 
> The prosecution response lays out a number of other factors which they say contributed to the neglect.
> 
> In short, the question if Baldwin acted within accepted industrial standards will be something for the jury to determine. I didn’t read Baldwin’s motion or watch any videos breaking that down, but obviously the defense has their assertions as well.
> 
> In the closing arguments of the Gutierrez-Reed trial, the prosecution said that she and Baldwin are both responsible, and this is their theory for Baldwin’s trial.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2852 "2024-07-12T14:12:20Z")

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The gun was drawn at the request of the DP (Halyna Hutchins).

The crew were establishing lighting. I believe it was a comnon shot that zoomed in on the barrel and bullets in the cylinder? It builds suspense for the scene.

They needed dummy replica bullets in the gun. They could be carved and painted wood or plastic. The material doesn’t matter. Blanks won’t work because they have crimped off ends.

I can’t recall detailed testimony in the armorer trial. I am interested in hearing witness testimony to establish if the DP was giving Baldwin instructions.

It’s obviously a crucial point whether Baldwin was unnecessarily handling the gun in a unsafe manner.

It mkes this tragedy more infuriating. Any dumb ass should be able to tell the difference in \*\*\*\*painted wood and a brass bullet. The level of negligence to load a real bullet into a revolver is incomprehensible to me. Dummy rounds don’t need to be very realistic for a camera shot 12 ft away. The camera lens only focuses on the shiny silver tip.

\*\*\*\*The bullets you see in a cowboy gun belt are very simple props. The entire gun belt is just a cheap prop. I remember the armorer said several cartridges had fallen out of the belts and had to be replaced. Their set supplier Kenny had more.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2853 "2024-07-12T14:52:14Z")

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I know they also have the dummies that are cartridges with bb’s inside and the primer removed.

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**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2854 "2024-07-12T14:52:45Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> They needed dummy replica bullets in the gun. They could be carved and painted wood or plastic. The material doesn’t matter.

“We’ve always done ot this way” is strong in many businesses, alas.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2855 "2024-07-12T14:58:56Z")

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They should ban the dummies with bb’s from film sets.

Mattel included plastic bullets in toy guns for decades. The kids version are orange or white to make it obvious they’re toys.

Plastic bullets could be painted realistically for close-up shots for Westerns.

Blanks are very obvious because they have crimped ends.

I expect industry safety changes have been made as a result of this senseless tragedy.

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**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2856 "2024-07-12T15:11:16Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> The gun was drawn at the request of the DP (Halyna Hutchins).

Who’s going to testify to that?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2857 "2024-07-12T15:12:58Z")

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There were several people in the crew standing close by. I can’t his name but at least one testified in the last trial.

Joel (the director) testified. I remember he didn’t directly observe the gun hand off to Baldwin. He was focused on his own work.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2858 "2024-07-12T15:17:30Z")

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I didn’t follow the last trial super-close. Did they actually testify Hutchins asked Baldwin to draw and point the weapon at the camera?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2859 "2024-07-12T15:18:58Z")

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I can’t remember if they got that specific in the last trial.

Halyna’s assistant DP testified. I can’t recall what he was asked.

I need to look at YouTube. But it isn’t clear which video applies. They’re labeled day 1, day 2 etc.

The Baldwin trial is Live on Youtube. I’ll watch some when I have free time.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2860 "2024-07-12T15:25:56Z")

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I guess the thrust is, that it’s not clear to me if Hutchins asked, or Baldwin proposed (and then did) without objection. Of course, even if Hutchins asked, that doesn’t necessarily exonerate Baldwin. Although if she did, it might explain why the prosecution is so hung up on the “pulled the trigger” part.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2861 "2024-07-12T16:02:13Z")

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The trial is heating up. A retired officer had brought in bullets from Seth Kenney that were associated with the ammo on set.

It got filed under a different case number by the evidence tech. She’s getting grilled. They have a special hearing today.

Seth Kenney’s role in this has always been looked at closely. He claims the live rounds weren’t from his inventory. So far, the police haven’t established for certain. IIRC 5 live rounds were found mixed with the props on set.

There’s a motion to dismiss they’re discussing.

Seth Kenney should testify later today. It required multiple screw ups for this tragedy. Starting with the supplier and then Hannah & Dave Halls.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2862 "2024-07-12T16:19:38Z")

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Wow.

[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/FByi6QndE3I/maxresdefault.jpg "Alec Baldwin Attorney Drops Bombshell While Grilling Crime Scene Technician") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FByi6QndE3I)

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**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2863 "2024-07-12T16:21:25Z")

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wow what?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2864 "2024-07-12T16:52:40Z")

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Wow! At least so far, that was 15 minutes of pointless testimony.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2865 "2024-07-12T17:02:55Z")

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Pointless? The police suppressed important evidence and hid it under a different case number. The defense learned about it.

The judge will rule on the motion to dismiss possibly be early next week. They’re continuing testimony today while she considers the ruling.

Seth Kenney was CYA. Talking to the cops and claiming he didn’t have live ammo in his set inventory.

I feel bad for the evidence tech. She was just following instructions from her supervisor.

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2866 "2024-07-12T17:17:22Z")

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> [@aceplace57](#):
>
> Pointless? The police suppressed important evidence and hid it under a different case number. The defense learned about it.

I haven’t been following this a closely as you, but what difference does any of this evidence make? It’s not disputed that there were live rounds there, and a live round was in the gun. I don’t think it’s disputed that Baldwin didn’t know those things. What are they going to learn from looking at actual bullets that’s relevant to his guilt or innocence?

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<div class="post-metadata">

**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\
**Post date:** [July 12, 2024, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/2867 "2024-07-12T17:21:17Z")

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They’re trying to link Seth Kenney as the source of the live ammo. That alone wouldn’t help Baldwin.

But. could this procedural error get the case dismissed? That is what the judge is considering. The ruling will be interesting.

There were errors in this case from the beginning. The path to prosecution took a lot of turns. That doesn’t take the gun out of Baldwin’s hand.

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