# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/284 "2021-10-23T02:40:38Z")
> [@running\_coach](#): > > > A lot of movies feature Navy SEALs, one of the US military’s elite special operations units. That normally means actors portraying SEALs, but for Act of Valor, the filmmakers went the extra mile: the commandos in their film were portrayed by actual, real SEALs. Realism was the goal of the movie, which was in part intended to inspire a wave of recruits into the Navy. Well, it doesn’t get much more real than live ammunition — which is exactly what they used for the film’s shoot. At first glance it seems pretty crazy to have people—whether actors, SEALs, or craft services—firing live rounds on the set of a movie. But then I remembered my experience working on the film _Hoosiers_ with Gene Hackman. Live ammunition used on the set of _Hoosiers_??? No, something else. The climactic basketball game in the film was shot at Hinkle Fieldhouse at Butler University in Indianapolis, the actual site of the actual high school game the film was based on. In basketball-crazy Indiana we thought there’d be no problem getting 12,000 or so extras to fill up the seats for the scene. Not even close. I’d guess there were about 3 or 4 thousand. Couldn’t even fill up the lower level of one side. So, the producers hatched a plan to have a local high school basketball game scheduled for the following night moved to Hinkle so they could get good crowd shots with hopefully more people and ones who actually looked like they were really cheering a game. Because they were. The game counted as an official result even though the floor was painted inaccurately (it had the narrower “key zone” used in the 1950’s. Gaffer’s tape was used temporarily to mark the real spots players were to stand in during the real free throws). We still didn’t have enough people but they moved large groups of extras around and shot different angles to do the job. I don’t believe CGI was an option. ANYWAY-- at long last my point is only-- if they could arrange to have h.s. hoopsters do what they do for real in order to shoot a flick, I’d imagine producers could arrange to have SEALs do what _they_ do for real and engage in live fire exercises for a film production. Or something. I kinda got lost in that ocean of words. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/285 "2021-10-23T02:54:50Z")
There is no earthly reason to have live rounds within a mile of that set. None of this makes sense. > **['Rust' crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal...](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set)** > > At least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to production managers about gun safety on the set. ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/286 "2021-10-23T03:03:51Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Does anyone think that this is more scurrilous than “Alec Baldwin is a murderer”? It has to be thought, and has to be investigated, and hopefully fully disproved. I hope that the police will follow the evidence wherever it leads, but that doesn’t mean that every possible theory of the crime _has_ to be investigated. I mean, it could have been someone still sore over having spent $18 for tickets to see _Pearl Harbor_. But I wasn’t anywhere near the scene. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/287 "2021-10-23T03:12:48Z")
This article in the LA times is unbelievable: > **['Rust' crew describes on-set gun safety issues and misfires days before fatal...](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set)** > > At least one of the camera operators complained last weekend to production managers about gun safety on the set. There had already been THREE discharges of supposedly ‘cold’ guns on the set in previous days. How the hell does that happen? Also, the ‘cold’ guns were _outside_ of the sound stage, and the armorer was nowhere around. So an assistant director just walked out, grabbed a gun on a cart, handed it to Baldwin and called out ‘cold gun’ - without actually checking it. This after there had already been three accidental discharges of supposedly ‘cold’ guns. Unbelievably reckless. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/288 "2021-10-23T03:16:51Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > unaware that it was loaded with live rounds, a detective wrote in the search warrant application. I assume this is just bad reporting and what they mean is the detective stated someone (I guess Assistant director Dave Halls) told them all of that, they didn’t just state it as fact on the warrant application? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/289 "2021-10-23T03:23:50Z")
It doesn’t sound like the concerns for safety were addressed. Who is at the top of the food change in this movie plot? ---
**Author:** ![Shalmanese](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/45deac/32.png) [@Shalmanese](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shalmanese)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/290 "2021-10-23T04:53:55Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > There is no earthly reason to have live rounds within a mile of that set. According to [this reddit thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/qdt7w4/alec_baldwin_was_handed_a_loaded_weapon_by_an/) > 1. “Live” is movie term to describe a gun that’s been loaded with blanks and ready to be fired for filming. You don’t typically confuse it with the layman term because a real live round would not be allowed anywhere on set to begin with. They are still investigating WTF could have happened, but I wouldn’t assume from this term being thrown around that it means they were using actual ammo for filming. ---
**Author:** ![terentii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terentii/32/212_2.png) [@terentii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/terentii)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/291 "2021-10-23T08:47:19Z")
> [@filmore](#): > > > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > > > If you are rehearsing a scene where your character is supposed to shoot another character, you are going to point a prop gun at that character and pull the trigger. Actors aim guns at other actors and pull the triggers literally hundreds of times every year. > > Some movies have the actor pressing the gun directly against themselves or another actor when they pull the trigger. That is, the barrel is literally pressed into the other person. Shots like that can’t really be faked by having the gun pointed away from the actor. There was an episode of _ **The Untouchables** _ in which Stanley Adams was whacked as he sat in the back seat of a roadster. While the camera was set up to make it appear the shooter (a guy in the front seat) was aiming at Adams’ stomach, it was clear (to me, at least) that the pistol was pointed well off to the side. Mind you, this was around 60 years ago; I don’t know if such a point-blank shooting scene could be filmed today, even if blanks were used. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/292 "2021-10-23T12:40:39Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Is this an accepted procedure on set, someone other than the armorer issuing the firearm and declaring it “cold”? I’ve only been working on television and movie sets for a few years, and on the east coast rather than in Hollywood, but I’ve been in several “gun intensive” series and this is unprecedented in my experience. Anytime I’ve ever handled a weapon the armorer has always handed it to me, and before handing it over has demonstrated its safe state. They open the chamber, shine a flashlight down the barrel, show that the magazine is loaded with whatever dummy rounds are being used. It’s kind of a ritual. Even in fight scenes where they’re using a rubber gun there’s a loud announcement that there’s a rubber gun on set and the prop is displayed. Maybe it’s because most of my work is at the studio where Jason Lee died during filming, but even on non-union sets no one but the armorer hands over a weapon, and there’s always a demonstration that comes with it. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/293 "2021-10-23T13:00:55Z")
It’s early yet, but it’s looking like about 60% of the responsibility lies with the armorer — a 24-year-old daughter of a legendary longtime armorer —- who left a “live” (hopefully meaning “blank, but not properly checked for wadding or other unintended ‘projectiles’” — but if it turns out to mean “fully live round,” that’s REALLY serious) gun out on a prop table, and wasn’t present at the filming but should have been; 35% with the assistant director, who should have known that the ARMORER, not the AD, hands the gun to the actor; 5% with Baldwin, who perhaps should have known to always point anything resembling a gun a little off to the side of any human. If this turns out to be the scenario, I feel a LITTLE sorry for the armorer — working on just her second film, but growing up with her father’s expectations that she’d continue his legacy — but not much. There might be some story there. Maybe she had too much confidence in her own abilities (feeling like she’d been in the business since early childhood, when really she hadn’t been) and didn’t pay attention to her job. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/294 "2021-10-23T13:20:34Z")
> **['I wasn't sure if I was ready': Doubts of 24-year-old head armorer](https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10123003/I-wasnt-sure-ready-Doubts-head-armorer-24-charge-guns-Alec-Baldwin-film.html)** > > Filming for Rust, a Western set in 1880's Kansas which stars Alec Baldwin, was only the second time Gutierrez-Reed had lead a production's firearms department. This is probably the most detailed and comprehensive article about everything known so far. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/295 "2021-10-23T13:29:52Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > 5% with Baldwin, who perhaps should have known to always point anything resembling a gun a little off to the side of any human. I don’t think Baldwin is in the clear until we know where the safety protocols failed, why they failed, and whose decisions led to the failure. An actor handling a prop gun wouldn’t be culpable _at all_, IMO, since they have a reasonable expectation that it should be perfectly safe to follow any direction they were given. But Baldwin wasn’t just an actor on this set, he was a producer and a writer. This was _his_ project, as I understand it. There are reports that union crewmembers walked out of the set the day before, and that there were known safety concerns, and that rehearsal _still_ took place without a full complement of experienced crew. Is that true? If true, who made that decision? I would think such a decision would go up to the producer level. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/296 "2021-10-23T13:34:51Z")
Do we know for sure which Armorer tested the gun? It’s my understanding the walk out occurred earlier that day? The guns were already there and had been used in filming. The replacement Armorer would have been getting up to speed. She may not have closely checked the guns and tested them. She’s still responsible. I’m just thinking how a shift change would dangerously interrupt the safety checks. There had to be some confusion and she’s inexperienced. She didn’t have the confidence to say, “we can’t film that scene until I throughly check the guns”. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/297 "2021-10-23T13:37:52Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > The replacement Armorer would have been getting up to speed. No “replacement armorer.” She wasn’t part of the union walkout. Camera crew is different than props department. So, she was fully responsible, just not present (apparently), and not paying attention to her job. There had been three other accidental (blank) discharges in previous days on the set. This was part of the camera crew’s motivation to walk off the set. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/298 "2021-10-23T13:40:41Z")
OK, that’s one theory we can forget about. Guns can have hair triggers. The least bit of pressure and they go off. A gun in that condition certainly shouldn’t be on a movie set. The on set misfires could be a lack of actor training. You never place your finger inside the trigger guard until you’re ready to fire. Trigger pressure varies from gun to gun. The armorer is responsible for training the actors. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/299 "2021-10-23T13:49:53Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m just thinking how a shift change would dangerously interrupt the safety checks. Actually, you might have identified a minor contributing factor. Though they aren’t directly responsible, the loss of most of the camera crew, and (impending?) replacement with “scabs” (likely less experienced overall, and certainly new to this set and group of folks), may have exacerbated the air of distraction and neglect, and that “this is a crisis so the usual rules don’t apply” (e.g., the AD handling a gun). ---
**Author:** ![Morgyn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/morgyn/32/3041_2.png) [@Morgyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Morgyn)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/300 "2021-10-23T14:16:30Z")
For those interested, I came across a twitter thread where a long-time film armorer explained a lot about the safety protocols that exist on set. > ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/301 "2021-10-23T14:18:02Z")
It would be interesting to know if “producer” was just sort of an honorary title they gave Baldwin, or if this was truly his project. Because working conditions on that set were apparently pretty bad and pretty chaotic, as evidenced by the earlier accidental gun firings and the crew walkout. The crew also had to work minimum 15-hour days (14 hours plus an hour for lunch) before they got comped for a hotel room, and even then it was a cheap dive that also served as a homeless shelter. If Baldwin was responsible for this sort of work environment, characterized by penny-pinching and carelessness, then he may indirectly bear some share of the blame. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/302 "2021-10-23T14:27:05Z")
> [@Morgyn](#): > > For those interested, I came across a twitter thread where a long-time film armorer explained a lot about the safety protocols that exist on set. Very, very informative. Thank you for the link. I realize now how badly things went wrong on the Rust set. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/303 "2021-10-23T14:33:45Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > The crew also had to work minimum 15-hour days (14 hours plus an hour for lunch) before they got comped for a hotel room, and even then it was a cheap dive that also served as a homeless shelter. If Baldwin was responsible for this sort of work environment, characterized by penny-pinching and carelessness, then he may indirectly bear some share of the blame. For the record, those hours are not unusual for the business. I routinely worked from 8am until midnight for multiple days (and sometimes multiple weeks). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=16)