# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 20
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/384 "2021-10-23T20:23:31Z")
> [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > That’s _possible_ , though grossly negligent and irresponsible. Whatever shooting anyone wants to do after hours should be with completely other guns. If a normal bullet was in a gun, in the middle of a film set, set up as a prop then you’re always going to be dealing with sabotage or gross negligence. Hanlon’s Razor says the latter. It’s also a such a grossly negligent way to try and sabotage the set - if it’s a union issue - that you may as well still call it gross negligence anyways. But, in general if there’s a cool, interesting, gossip worthy explanation and a boring and sad one, you should bet on boring. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/385 "2021-10-23T20:23:45Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > But more to the point, if a ‘cold’ gun actually contains a live cartridge of any sort, it’s a sign that safety procedures have broken down and are not to be trusted until the source of the error is located Yeah, if I understand the terms right, “cold” gun is supposed to mean that it is set so when you squeeze the trigger there’s going to be nothing but “click”. All the different steps between “gun in shipping box” and “gun in hand, finger on trigger” will need to be reviewed to see where the (literally) fatal error(s) happened. And if the guns were just sitting there, available to be grabbed, not really secured, _that_ is huge IMO. At the end of the chain there are also several repetitions of assumption/expectation folly or complacency: of the armorer, that nobody would handle the firearms without her immediate supervision; of the AD, that if firearms were laid out it meant they were all verified safe; of Baldwin and the filming crew, that the AD saying “cold gun” meant he _knew_, rather than assumed, it was. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/386 "2021-10-23T20:27:33Z")
A couple of people have suggested sabotage on the part of the crew members who departed earlier. But that doesn’t absolve the armorer of responsibility, as she should have maintained custody of the guns or at least re-checked them prior to their use. (My understanding is that hours passed from when the crew members left to when the shooting occurred.) ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/387 "2021-10-23T20:32:02Z")
I would agree, if that proves true. The best argument you could make for her would be that the others shouldn’t have been messing with her stuff during rehearsals. Plausibly, she wasn’t supposed to get there until real shooting was supposed to begin and plausibly she had told people to not touch anything without her. I assume, her lawyer would make that case for as much of it as is accurate. I don’t see it doing much to help her in court (if they’re not supposed to mess with it, why wouldn’t it be in a safe?), but it’s probably the best they can do. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/388 "2021-10-23T20:34:48Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > Plausibly, she wasn’t supposed to get there until real shooting was supposed to begin and plausibly she had told people to not touch anything without her. “Her stuff” shouldn’t accessible if she’s not there. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/389 "2021-10-23T20:36:42Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > I’ve only been keeping up with this by reading the thread. So, anyone got a link that says there was actual ammunition, not blanks, on the set? The projectile went through one human body and impacted the one behind with sufficient force to cause injury. I would call that “actual ammunition”. It sure as hell is not a blank round. There has been a lot of messy reporting around this, but the “went through one person and hit the other behind” has been reported multiple times and seems pretty certain. > [@chela](#): > > One usually doesn’t hear of on set injuries or even fatalities. Is it a laissez faire style of studio leadership that fails to recognize dangers? is it expected of actors to sustain injuries as part of the hazards of the job? Of course it’s not expected that actors suffer injuries, or anyone else for that matter. There are supposed to be safety rules and precautions in place even for stunt people, even more so for everyone else. Do accidents happen? Of course. But there are rules and practices in place to minimize the risk and avoid the worst consequences. They only work when actually followed, though. > [@Dewey\_Finn](#): > > Why would any real ammo be anywhere near the set? Many, many, many people have been asking that question. > [@needscoffee](#): > > I’m wondering if they decided to go ahead with production without waiting for the armorer to arrive. That would be a very bad and unsafe thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/390 "2021-10-23T20:38:46Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Again: been there. Multiple times. Slept in a kitchen at the Hilton Garden in Monterey once rather than drive back to Santa Cruz and then back to Monterey 6 hours later, for example. > > It isn’t right and it isn’t cool, but it happens. > > People not in the business don’t really realize just how hard it is. That these conditions exist and that the conditions that led to this tragedy exist are not at all surprising to me. Yep. Been there done that as well. Worst as my attempt to use an air mattress in the back of my Nissan Quest in the long-term parking lot at JFK Airport. Because it was safer than the roach motel I was offered. Abysmal and dangerous. To clarify something stated up above, IATSE Local 44 oversees Armorers. They have stated that the person on set that day was non-Union and not in any way affiliated with them. They were a scab like the other scabs. From [this article on the event](https://www.avclub.com/prop-gun-fired-by-alec-baldwin-that-killed-crew-member-1847916720?fbclid=IwAR2m949yV1yXYjAFF-m3qOPTa5cGnFouTgACEJXmhuk2Y8u_7UQrVkCHohY), I quote. " Now, new updates to the incident include the fact that a live bullet had somehow been inside the prop gun discharged by Baldwin. As [reported by IndieWire](https://www.indiewire.com/2021/10/alec-baldwin-fires-gun-kills-cinematographer-wounds-director-on-rust-set-1234673555/), IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, sent out an email to its members announcing that the prop gun used in the scene being filmed contained a “live round.” Additionally, the union noted that the production’s prop master was not a member of Local 44. " ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/391 "2021-10-23T21:46:33Z")
To clarify: There was one armorer. Apparently neither she nor the prop master was part of that union that includes prop masters and typically also armorers. They were “scabs,” but not recent replacements on this set. (Actually, the armorer might have been union, but the prop master wasn’t. Not particularly relevant at all — just the union trying to distance itself from this.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/392 "2021-10-23T22:41:27Z")
I’ve been reading statements from Set Armorers. It seems that the Assistant Director runs the set and oversees safety. He/She should have acted if the Armorer wasn’t following protocols. Unfortunately the AD gave Baldwin the gun. Breaking protocol. That’s the Armorer’s job to provide & supervise the use of the guns. IMHO At least two people are in a lot of trouble. Possibly facing criminal charges. I don’t think Baldwin is responsible. But he will have to live with the trauma of the shooting. That’s going to weigh heavily on him. There’s also the question of who brought live ammo to a movie set. I’d certainly hope the Armorer wasn’t that foolish. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/393 "2021-10-23T23:01:55Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > There had already been THREE discharges of supposedly ‘cold’ guns on the set in previous days. How the hell does that happen? My sister and brother in law are both actors; both have used weapons on set. Both read this story, and both struggled to believe it. It’s so over the top reckless it’s like something out of a story from the 1920s, or written into an outlandish movie-within-a-movie farce. > [@wolfpup](#): > > I heard it was something like 6 or 7 million. That’s the budget. But how much has been spent? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/394 "2021-10-23T23:04:52Z")
> [@Cartooniverse](#): > > Now, new updates to the incident include the fact that a live bullet had somehow been inside the prop gun discharged by Baldwin. As [reported by IndieWire](https://www.indiewire.com/2021/10/alec-baldwin-fires-gun-kills-cinematographer-wounds-director-on-rust-set-1234673555/), IATSE Local 44, which covers prop masters, sent out an email to its members announcing that the prop gun used in the scene being filmed contained a “live round.” That quote is confusing, though, because it uses both the term _live round_ and _live bullet_. A blank is a live round, but does not contain a bullet. The link leads to an article that is much clearer, and never makes the claim a bullet was in the weapon. The fact that weapons were misfiring before raises the possibility that this might have been a mishap similar to the one that killed Brandon Lee. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/395 "2021-10-23T23:24:02Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > Further it is my understanding that en Executive Producer is involved with the non-artistic parts of a production like making sure everybody gets paid and the caterer has the proper health certification so the whole crew doesn’t come down with food poisoning. What you describe sounds more like a ‘producer’ than ‘executive producer’. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/396 "2021-10-23T23:34:12Z")
It makes sense that two people are supposed to confirm a gun is cold (unloaded) before giving to the actor. [https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/entertainment/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-saturday/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/23/entertainment/alec-baldwin-rust-shooting-saturday/index.html) > [@](#): > > “Cold guns” aren’t supposed to be loaded, particularly during rehearsals, a weapons expert told CNN on Friday. > > “You have to make sure that the weapon is truly cold, which means there should have been no rounds in there, period. And especially if it’s a rehearsal,” Bryan Carpenter, an armorer and weapons master in the film industry, told CNN. > > Carpenter added that while it’s acceptable for some actors to want to get a feel of a weapon during rehearsals, it’s crucial to ensure the prop guns are not filled with any rounds. He noted that weapons on sets should be confirmed “cold” by two people to avoid such tragic incidents. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2021, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/397 "2021-10-23T23:40:03Z")
I suspect talent agencies are being deluged by artists right now wanting to amend their terms to exclude any role that requires them to be on either end of a firearm. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/398 "2021-10-24T00:23:45Z")
Wouldn’t it be wild if this incident, thru de-incentivizing Hollywood to make movies and shows involving guns, somehow reduced American’s demand for guns? ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/400 "2021-10-24T00:33:16Z")
I have read first-person accounts from crew members on this show that the entire budget is 2 million, with $ 700,000 going to Alec Baldwin. Even for an IATSE Tier 1 show, that’s both very low budget AND wonky in terms of fees to the Producer/ Star. But hey, you get the funding and you’re an actor, you get the money. In 1995 I shot a low-budget movie. It had a few medium-level stars and one out and out star. The budget was $ 3.5 million. By 2021 standards, $ 2 million is just above a Graduate Thesis. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/401 "2021-10-24T00:59:10Z")
It seems it was a live round ( lead bullet ) that was confused with a crimp blank. Unacceptable. [Weapon and Ammo supplier](https://www.westernstageprops.com/44-and-45-Caliber-Ammo-s/1896.htm?fbclid=IwAR3caIBExSwy64pFoyCN5r41KMLdi9msxDdOhUCwJzbaa7R_ZMrw614ddeE) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/402 "2021-10-24T01:02:23Z")
Wow, thanks. It will be interesting to see exactly how this mistake was made. Mistaken purchase, days or weeks before? Or (as rumor has it) use of the same gun(s) to do a little real shootin’ for some R and R, a day or so before the incident, and the ammo got mixed together? ETA: Martin Hyde cited TMZ that it was the latter. That is very, very bad. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/403 "2021-10-24T01:02:54Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > aA real, live, unspent ammunition cartridge containing primer, propellant, and solid bullet. Everything I’ve read says just the _existence_ of single live spent or unspent cartridge with primer, propellant and solid bullet on set should have be enough to have the whole thing shutdown to work out what happened, even if it was never fired. Basically an accident with a blank round is unthinkable enough (as this is specifically what killed Brandon Lee and led to a raft of safety changes), and definitely some people may go to prison for it, but an actual real “live” bullet ending up in a prop gun is beyond even that. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/404 "2021-10-24T01:03:20Z")
TMZ is reporting the gun was regularly taken off set for target practice (recreational), target practice was done with real bullets. Additionally the real bullets for the gun were stored in the same location as the various “Hollywood” less-dangerous rounds. It’s starting to come together now that unspeakable negligence occurred. > **[Gun in Alec Baldwin Accident Was Also Used Off-Set, Recreationally](https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-baldwin-rust-gun-accident-used-off-set-target-practice/)** > > The gun was supposedly being used for target practice, with real bullets. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=19) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=21)