# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 21
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/405 "2021-10-24T01:06:44Z")
Apparently the lead armorer, or whatever it’s called, was a very young 24. Learned from her expert father. This was only her second job as lead armorer, the first one being a Nicholas Cage movie. CNN was playing a podcast she was a guest on during the Cage movie in which she expressed reservations about whether she was really ready for that sort of responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/406 "2021-10-24T01:09:00Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > as there would have been no live rounds on set. Therefore there were no bullets. What happened involved something else. > [@GuanoLad](#): > > There is no earthly reason to have live rounds within a mile of that set. None of this makes sense. I said both these things. I am devastated to see how wrong I was. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/407 "2021-10-24T01:10:08Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Learned from her expert father Or….not. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/408 "2021-10-24T01:12:52Z")
There have been reports of disgruntled crew quitting due to safety concerns. What if one of them put a live bullet in the gun just to stir up shit? Some may say that’s unthinkable, but I don’t think so. I’ve known a lot of people capable of shit like that. And don’t forget someone poisoned those Tylenol bottles 40 years ago. People do crap like this a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/409 "2021-10-24T01:16:10Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > > [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > > > aA real, live, unspent ammunition cartridge containing primer, propellant, and solid bullet. > > Everything I’ve read says just the _existence_ of single live spent or unspent cartridge with primer, propellant and solid bullet on set should have be enough to have the whole thing shutdown to work out what happened, even if it was never fired. > > Basically an accident with a blank round is unthinkable enough (as this is specifically what killed Brandon Lee and led to a raft of safety changes), and definitely some people may go to prison for it, but an actual real “live” bullet ending up in a prop gun is beyond even that. In my army career I was involved in two incidents where live ammo was mixed with blanks. One incident I was not directly involved but I was close by. In the other incident I probably would have been killed if someone hadn’t noticed the mistake barely in time. It’s scary as hell. A movie set with few moving parts means there is no reason for that to happen. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/410 "2021-10-24T01:22:14Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > TMZ is reporting the gun was regularly taken off set for target practice (recreational), target practice was done with real bullets. Additionally the real bullets for the gun were stored in the same location as the various “Hollywood” less-dangerous rounds. > > It’s starting to come together now that unspeakable negligence occurred. > > [Gun in Alec Baldwin Accident Was Also Used Off-Set, Recreationally](https://www.tmz.com/2021/10/23/alec-baldwin-rust-gun-accident-used-off-set-target-practice/) That both makes sense and is completely insane at the same time. It sounds funny but I generally trust TMZ as a source. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/411 "2021-10-24T01:23:53Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > What if one of them put a live bullet in the gun just to stir up shit? Occam’s Razor, and apparently semi-reliable reports (I think of TMZ as about in the middle of the pack), suggest it was more likely several people stupidly having fun with the guns, with live ammo, during time off. Was the armorer one of those folks? That would be really bad. Even if she wasn’t, the armorer should have kept close watch over those guns, 24/7, without anyone touching them but her and (briefly) the actors, so also very bad. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/412 "2021-10-24T01:24:38Z")
Hanlon’s Razor. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/413 "2021-10-24T01:25:21Z")
Yes — even more appropriate! ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/414 "2021-10-24T01:31:23Z")
i’m not sure Baldwin is off the hook. Several actors have weighed in on Twitter saying that actors who handle guns have to take annual safety training supplied by the NRA, and that the training and SAG rules say the actor has the final responsibility to make sure the gun is ‘cold’. This is normally accomplished by the armorer showing the actor the gun with the action open, and then shining a flashlight down the barrel to show there is nothing in the barrel. If the actor is supposed to fire blanks, he is supposed to know exactly how many shots to take, and is shown the blank rounds and verifies that there are exactly as many as required, no more, no less. If this doesn’t happen, the actor is supposed to decline the weapon, OR ensure for themselves that the weapon is safe by test-firing it at the ground if it’s supposed to be empty, or clearing the gun themselves. No one pointing a real gun is ever supposed to do so without personal positive confirmation that it’s safe. They posted the actual SAG rules confirming this. Apparently, this routine is so ingrained that these actors have said that in decades of using guns in movies they have never seen this prodedure skipped, and would never accept and point a real gun at anyone without this being done. It was described as a ‘ritual’ that would be shocking if it wasn’t done. It sounds like they basically are supposed to use standard gun safety techniques, modified for movie shooting without compromising safety. The other reason Baldwin might be liable is because there are comments from the crew to the effect that procedures were breaking down because of a rush to finish shooting because of the low budget, and that there was a bullying producer on set ordering people to do things quickly. Baldwin is a producer on the movie. That doesn’t mean it was him, but it could be and fits what we know of his temperament. We can probably put the ‘disgruntled union guy’ theory to rest, though. It sounds like the earlier accidental discharges pre-dated the labor dispute. This is just a breakdown in safety procedures caused by a chaotic working environment and a lot of very stupid decisions… ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/415 "2021-10-24T01:37:06Z")
Is loading a blank into a gun any different than loading a real bullet into a gun? She probably would have learned to load guns as a kid if her dad was a legendary armorer. Maybe she means being scared to make no mistakes that every round is, indeed, a blank. But then, no real bullet should ever be on a set and, presumably, the armorer is in charge of acquiring the blanks. I dunno. Weird. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/416 "2021-10-24T01:38:04Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Is loading a blank into a gun any different than loading a real bullet into a gun? Except for muzzle-loaders, no. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/417 "2021-10-24T01:38:20Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > TMZ is reporting the gun was regularly taken off set for target practice (recreational), target practice was done with real bullets. Additionally the real bullets for the gun were stored in the same location as the various “Hollywood” less-dangerous rounds. Damn, yeah that’s some next level fucked up-ness. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/418 "2021-10-24T01:42:11Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Apparently, this routine is so ingrained that these actors have said that in decades of using guns in movies they have never seen this prodedure skipped, and would never accept and point a real gun at anyone without this being done. It was described as a ‘ritual’ that would be shocking if it wasn’t done Interesting (another post upthread said this as well, but you provided more detail). Yes, this does put some blame onto Baldwin, and at least as much of not more (IMHO) on the Assistant Director who handed it to him. (But still most of the blame is on the armorer.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/419 "2021-10-24T01:49:54Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > bullying producer on set ordering people to do things quickly. Manslaughter is for closers? ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/420 "2021-10-24T01:55:29Z")
> [@JKellyMap](#): > > (But still most of the blame is on the armorer.) I feel that you’re making an unreasonable assumption that she wasn’t absent for a completely reasonable and defensible reason like rapid onset morning ebola. (She got better.) ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/421 "2021-10-24T01:59:22Z")
Heh. (Though, while she clearly did some awful and possibly criminal things, it may turn out her absence per se might not be one of them, if the AD, director, and perhaps Alec hurried things along that day without informing everyone of the change in schedule.) ---
**Author:** ![flurb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/51bf81/32.png) [@flurb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flurb)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/422 "2021-10-24T02:05:02Z")
The more I hear about what happened here, the less I think about this as a tragic accident and the more I think that people need to go to jail over this. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/423 "2021-10-24T02:07:52Z")
The armorer might not have been on set because no one told her they were shooting with real guns that day. We don’t know the circumstances that led to her not being there. I could also see a circumstance where a bunch of macho actors simply bullied her or kept her completely in the dark about what was going on when she wasn’t around. A 24 year old female armorer just might not have comnanded the respect on set for everyone to follow her rules, especially with Hollywood egos and a rushed production being done on the cheap with a producer on set harassing everyone. Or maybe she walked off the set in solidarity with the union people, never thinking they’d be reckless enough to keep shooting without an armorer. But I have to say that the breakdown in procedures and accidental discharges over a period of days does not look good for her. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2021, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/424 "2021-10-24T02:14:15Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The armorer might not have been on set because no one told her they were shooting with real guns that day. We don’t know the circumstances that led to her not being there. Really asking… Wouldn’t the armorer be responsible for securing the guns and locking them up before she left? Or is it normal to leave them out? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=20) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=22)