# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 38
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/746 "2021-10-25T23:06:32Z")
No more of this hijack ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/747 "2021-10-25T23:07:06Z")
---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/748 "2021-10-25T23:17:11Z")
Obviously safety protocols were violated. But nothing in anything you’ve said or linked suggests Baldwin has responsibility for making sure the weapon is safe. That seems to be the point you are missing. SAG delineates the actor’s entitlements, it does not create a legal responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/749 "2021-10-25T23:19:12Z")
I think that’s mostly true, but when he was told Cold Gun he likely assumed dummy rounds (which aren’t capable of firing.) There are still some scenarios where blanks are fired directly at camera, they use shields and the camera operator will often be out of direct like of fire too if possible. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/750 "2021-10-25T23:24:24Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > Out of curiosity, how many times have you seen a gun be handed to an actor, declared ‘cold’ without showing the state of the gun to the actor, and subsequently used? The question is if this is standard industry practice. I’m forced to say never, even when rubber guns or knives are used they announce the presence on set and display it to the crew, but almost all of my work has been in television with established production companies. There’s a lot more gunplay in my TV series than in the couple of movies I’ve worked in. Movies are not like a traditional workplace with people who have worked together for years. Big time directors, like Eastwood, and Spielberg and Scorcese have their own favorite crews, and work together all the time, but most film crews are ad hoc organizations thrown together for the one film and may have a lot of people who have never worked together. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/751 "2021-10-25T23:30:38Z")
> [@Tibby](#): > > If live ammo is not allowed on set, or is very rarely on set, and live ammo was involved in this shooting, has anyone posed the possibility that someone put live ammo in the gun with malicious intent? Not likely, I suppose, but movie people aren’t immune to homicidal ideation. It has been put forward by a couple of people in this thread, but has not been worth exploring because there is no evidence to support it. Occam’s Razor applies, the simplest explanation is the most likely - negligence and incompetence. The live rounds were apparently from crew members using the guns for target practice after-hours. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2021, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/752 "2021-10-25T23:38:37Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > Occam’s Razor applies, the simplest explanation is the most likely - negligence and incompetence. Especially here, where sabotaging a gun by leaving a live round in it would still require negligence and incompetence for the sabotage not to have been caught as part of the normal rules around handling firearms on a movie set. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/753 "2021-10-26T00:24:07Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > SAG delineates the actor’s entitlements, it does not create a legal responsibility. Arguably, though, it could help create a standard of care that is deemed reasonable conduct. If Baldwin faced civil liability for negligence, the basic legal question to be ascertained is whether he acted as a reasonable person would. And it can be fairly argued that reasonable in this context is not what an average Joe would do, but what an experienced actor would do. In that sense, industry standards could help establish the baseline for due care. Having read this thread, though, I don’t think there’s any certainty that Baldwin would be held liable for negligence. It doesn’t sound like actors must inspect weapons, and that they are actually subordinate to the specialists on set who handle the weapons in terms of safety. It also appears to be an undisputed fact that this was announced as a “cold gun” when Baldwin received it. I suspect that his reliance on this assurance would be deemed reasonable. For a similar reason, I don’t think that this is criminal. On the site of a western film, handling guns is not reckless conduct. Of course, that belief necessarily falls apart if it becomes evident that Baldwin participated in, or was fully aware of, shortcuts in safety protocols. ---
**Author:** ![TreacherousCretin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/treacherouscretin/32/476_2.png) [@TreacherousCretin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TreacherousCretin)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/754 "2021-10-26T00:24:48Z")
Is this old news? > **[Alec Baldwin Fatal Shooting Film’s First AD Was “Fired” From 2019 Movie Over...](https://deadline.com/2021/10/alec-baldwin-fatal-shooting-rust-david-halls-halyna-hutchins-1234862258/)** > > The fatal shooting of cinematographer Halyna Hutchins by Alec Baldwin last week on the Santa Fe set of Rust wasn’t the first time First Assistant Director David Halls worked on a film where a weapo… ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/755 "2021-10-26T00:26:32Z")
Agreed–I have said that I think Baldwin would likely be found partially liable in a civil suit, I imagine the eventual lawsuit will have a number of named defendants and I expect both Baldwin’s production company and Baldwin personally will be named. I anticipate all or most of the defendants settle quietly out of court for varying amounts. Given the reporting that Baldwin has been amicable with the husband and visited him after the incident etc, it’s also possibly they come to a private settlement without litigation. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/756 "2021-10-26T00:36:31Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > BTW, I’m having a hard time understanding how the gun just ‘went off’. A single-action revolver requires the hammer to be manually thumbed back before the gun will fire. Maybe the hammer caught on some clothing, causing it to cock? I do know that the older Colts, especially single-action, could be hair-trigger. Modern guns are less prone to doing things like firing when dropped and such. I really don’t have sufficient specifics or knowledge to really know in this instance, though. > [@Stephe96](#): > > Doesn’t the fact that he shot two people suggest that he did “aim it at someone?” Not really. One of my high school classmates was shot in the neck while sitting in her second story bedroom when her brother, who was in the basement of their house, fumbled the gun he was about to unload and clean. Given the physical structures between the two people there was no way he could have aimed it at her, yet it hit her anyway. A truly unfortunate coincidence if the gun went off and hit someone that was not an intentional target - a slight change in position and everyone would have been simply scared, or some equipment destroyed, instead of a human being. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/757 "2021-10-26T00:38:38Z")
> [@GuanoLad](#): > > The live rounds were apparently from crew members using the guns for target practice after-hours. It’s easy to see that this kind of horsing around should be banned. No crew person or production property should be used in this manner. ---
**Author:** ![GuanoLad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guanolad/32/42_2.png) [@GuanoLad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuanoLad)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/758 "2021-10-26T00:41:04Z")
Agreed. I haven’t seen that this has been confirmed to have happened, by the way. It’s anecdotal so far. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/759 "2021-10-26T00:48:26Z")
> [@griffin1977](#): > > So is that actually the case here? Are terms like “dangerous” and “due caution” more precisely defined in the law than how they commonly used? > > IANAL but I thought there was the concept of (as it is described in the UK) “the man on the Clapham omnibus”, as in the legal definition of a term like this is whatever your average “man on the street” would consider it to be. Also NAL, and certainly not familiar with the nuances of the law in New Mexico, but your description of how one might evaluate “due caution” (or a departure therefrom) is not so far off from how I understand negligence is assessed. It’s not necessarily (though it may be the case for all I know) that some statute in New Mexico must precisely define negligence or the specific elements that go into finding negligence, but that there will absolutely be case law where courts have previously been required to answer threshold questions, whatever the statutes may say or be silent on. Anyway, still NAL, but I understand the “reasonable person” standard (or, as you put it, the average “man on the street” standard) is generally the standard by which negligence is judged because the whole point of negligence is that the “actor” did not perceive a risk–they were unawares–but that a reasonable person _would_ have perceived such a risk and taken care to act differently. I would just note that the proper point of view to adopt, re: reasonableness, here might not be the average “man on the street” so much as the average “man on the street who happens to be an actor in film productions and is aware of the circumstances as a reasonable person with similar background would have perceived them in Mr. Baldwin’s situation.” > [@DesertDog](#): > > I can’t claim to be a genuine expert but I have read _No Second Place Winner_ by [Bill Jordan](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Jordan_(American_lawman)). In it he specifically mentioned a lack of enthusiasm about the cross draw because that sweep puts bystanders at a higher risk and it takes longer to complete the draw and take an aimed shot. A thousand times this. If “real” gun rules applied, no Hollywood actor would EVER cross-draw a weapon on set because of the greater risk of pointing it in an “unsafe” direction during the course of sweeping across the torso from one side of the body to forward. It’s a great theatrical movement and no doubt plays well on film, but it’s 180 degrees out (almost literally, referring to the arc of motion) from what a trained professional employing a firearm as part of their “real” (not “Hollywood”) job _should_ ever do. But then of course there are “real” “professionals” who like to imagine themselves as cowboy action heroes, and so of course all bets are off when it comes to what they might _actually_ do–point being the expectation of how they might “reasonably” carry themselves, irrespective of how they actually carry themselves, would be very different from what we see on television or in the theaters. Which is all just to say I agree with those who suspect what is “proper” or “reasonable” conduct involving the theatrical use of firearms will vary from the baseline firearm safety procedures we may be used to hearing about (eg: assume every gun is loaded, don’t point it at anything you don’t intend to shoot, etc). Among those variations from “normal” to account for the theatrical environment might be to mitigate the risk inherent in pointing a gun at someone that you, on the one hand, don’t intend to shoot, but on the other hand kind of need to point the gun at so the movie can happen, is to have all firearms verified clear by a licensed/trained armorer and handled in a closed and controlled environment throughout. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/760 "2021-10-26T00:58:15Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > I have no idea what that has to do with what I said. This would be a newsworthy event whether Alec Baldwin was involved or not. Newsworthy…but _this_ newsworthy? This story wouldn’t make the front page of any newspaper but _Variety_ if it didn’t boil down to “Alec Baldwin Kills Woman”. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/761 "2021-10-26T01:10:18Z")
But there would be no reason those headlines would be any different. He did accidentally shoot the woman. Whether or not it was his fault (legally or otherwise) would not change that fact. It seems unlikely that Baldwin will be held legally responsible for shooting this actor, but he still did shoot her, even if he wasn’t aiming at her and did not expect a bullet to come out. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/762 "2021-10-26T01:31:43Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Newsworthy…but _this_ newsworthy? This story wouldn’t make the front page of any newspaper but _Variety_ if it didn’t boil down to “Alec Baldwin Kills Woman”. The needlessness of the death is the headline and not Baldwin. he’s the third person on the list of people who should have looked at the weapon. The other two are probably more negligent in this regard. But you can certainly replace his name with any other actor and it would get the same public scrutiny. ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/763 "2021-10-26T01:34:27Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s easy to see that this kind of horsing around should be banned. No crew person or production property should be used in this manner. Even if such a thing was banned I doubt it would have made any difference in this case, since they were already dispensing with safety norms for this to happen. I wouldn’t be surprised if this sort of thing is already banned. That wouldn’t prevent it from happening. I’m not sure how to 100% prevent this from happening. Even if you banned all real guns from films, and insisted that every gun must be fake and firing a gun must be 100% CGI (no blanks allowed), if someone decides that it’s cheaper or looks better or just prefers to have a real gun on the set and doesn’t care about safety then it’ll happen. All that being said, I am totally in agreement with you that if this sort of thing isn’t banned, it should be. There is absolutely no justification for it. I am a gun owner myself and I am paranoid about my gun, as I think anyone responsible should be. And I’m not even a professional. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/764 "2021-10-26T01:49:57Z")
A huge thing in entertainment, especially in film and television, is _liability_. It often seems that many more safety measures are in place not because anyone actually cares about other people but to limit liability if and when there is an incident. And for that reason, horsing around with props normally doesn’t happen IME. Those things are valuable to the production, and messing one up could delay the whole thing. If those guns were used for target practice, one could have jammed and had the cylinder or the barrel damaged. Then there’s an insurance claim, paperwork to fill out and possibly time lost obtaining a replacement or determining a work-around. Nobody wants to be responsible for those headaches. Props are props, period. ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2021, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/765 "2021-10-26T01:52:43Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > It’s easy to see that this kind of horsing around should be banned. No crew person or production property should be used in this manner. And it absolutely 100% is. This (and the fact the live rounds were allegedly left near the blank rounds) is the most head scratching WTF of the whole thing. Everything else can be attributed to inexperience, overworked staff, and poor safety standards on a penny-pinching production (with a safety averse assistant director). Using a prop weapon for target practice while the movie is being made is just another level of insanity. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=37) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=39)