# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 63
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1247 "2021-11-01T18:58:44Z")
I’m wondering if, because they moved the camera and in doing so had new marks for Baldwin, they loaded it with (they thought) dummy bullets to make sure they got the shot (no pun intended) down the cylinders they wanted although it was a rehersal. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1248 "2021-11-01T18:59:18Z")
Hunter’s politics enter into it because he is just one among a giant avalanche of asshole right-wingers who have gleefully thrown aside taste and decorum as they leap for the opportunity to take cheap shots at Baldwin’s history of anger issues, despite their total irrelevance in this matter. That Hunter himself would do this is especially egregious, because as a former film critic you would think he has the knowledge and connections to represent the matter fairly and accurately, instead of joining the aforementioned avalanche of assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1249 "2021-11-01T19:05:23Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Whatever his intentions, I think we can safely assume the gun was pointed at the camera operator and not the camera. Were that the case, the only tragedy here would be a big bullet hole in an expensive camera. How can we possibly safely assume that without knowing the position of the camera and the camera operator and director? Honestly your last few posts in this thread have shown some weird anti-Baldwin bias and include the linking of an absolute trash article. You’re making assumptions absent much evidence, and you’re defending an article that contains several provably false things in it. For example here are some things Hunter wrote in his article: > [@](#): > > Whether intentionally or by chance, he has had a remarkably gun-free career as a film actor. He has never made a Western. His most recent exposure dates back to 1994’s “The Getaway,” in which he used a .45 automatic, as did Steve McQueen in Sam Peckinpah’s original. However the automatic is a pistol from another era (1911 on) and its protocols are entirely different than the Italian clone of the Colt Peacemaker he reportedly used on the set of “Rust.” Misses multiple entries on Baldwin’s resume after “The Getaway.” > [@](#): > > Clearly, Baldwin was not a western action shooter. One must further wonder if his reputed anger issues or his CEO status as producer precluded some old-salt type from giving him a basic rundown on what he could or could not do or what he should never do with the pistol. If so, that would be one more catastrophe in the chain of catastrophes that killed Ms. Hutchins. This is a complete trash can statement, as was his previous comment that the gun has been used “thousands of times safely in Westerns.” I am willing to wager the vast, overwhelming majority of times the Colt single action revolver was used safely in movies, _it was not loaded with real ammunition._ The idea that “one has to wonder” if Baldwin’s “anger problems” means he refused any offers for help learning how to use the firearm is entirely scurrilous and without evidence at all. There’s never been any assertion that I’ve seen that Baldwin is a hot head on set, his anger problems have been interfamilial, with paparazzi and social media political disputes. If everyone who got in to an argument with his family or a political argument on social media was a raging hot head at work, a lot more people would be out of jobs. > [@](#): > > All these years later, it retains some features that make it dangerous to the tenderfoot. Again, Hunter comes off like an idiot here by portraying this as “Baldwin not being familiar with the gun.” What Baldwin was not familiar with was having a gun loaded with real ammunition on a movie set. That is the core failure, and putting attention anywhere else, by a known foam at the mouth Trumper, is just more crying over spilled milk that someone was mean to their Trumpy god (and I have to wonder if that is your motivation for posting in this thread.) > [@](#): > > Something like this must have happened to Baldwin. The actor, as reported, was sitting in the pew of the church, practicing. He was trying mightily to get the draw-cock rhythm down and that was his focus, though dangerously adding the element of speed. It never occurred to him that the gun was loaded. (Rule No. 1: All guns are always loaded.) He was unaware that his muzzle had drifted onto the camera crew where Ms. Hutchins and director Joel Souza were crouched. (Rule No. 2: Never let your muzzle cover anything you aren’t willing to destroy.) Here Hunter writes more trash–his **wild speculation** about what Baldwin was doing is literally that, speculation, he has no idea. His quoting the rules of gun safety is purely political–as has been well established in this thread, the rules of gun safety, in a controlled and safe fashion, are regularly by necessity violated on movie sets. That is why the role of technical workers who make it safe to violate those rules is so important. > [@](#): > > In practicing the draw-while-cocking integration, his index finger had wandered onto the trigger, depressing it just far enough to bypass the cocking function. (Rule No. 3: Don’t touch the trigger until you’re ready to shoot.) Struggling awkwardly, he released the hammer under the impression he had cocked the pistol. He hadn’t. The hammer flew forward. The gun fired. (Rule No. 4: Always know what your target is.) It is quite possible that absent knowledge of these mechanics, he still believes the gun fired on its own, out of some defect. The defect was his. This, again, is Hunter just speculating wildly, he has literally no evidence. FWIW, the possibility Baldwin accidentally fanned the gun is entirely possible, but he has literally no evidence, and he is speaking imperatively and making assertions about things he doesn’t know about. It’s frankly entirely possible Baldwin did not “accidentally” fan the gun, but actually cocked it and then accidentally pulled the trigger–the mechanics of the Colt single action are that when cocked, the trigger only requires 1/8th of a trigger press to fire, so it is in a state where it’s much easier to accidentally fire than normal no “fanning” required. But that’s _speculation_, I wasn’t there, and neither was this idiot Trumpy author. The fact you would both post and defend this article speaks volumes to motivation, and it’s embarrassing that someone post and defend such abject trashcan writing. I’m sorry that the personal lord and savior of the far-right Donald Trump lost reelection. I’m sorry that it upsets you that someone like Alec Baldwin made fun of him, repeatedly, on national TV. But it was easy to do, Trump was an imbecile and a buffoon, and easily mocked. He additionally has the thinnest of skins, which makes mocking him even more enjoyable. I’m sorry this has afflicted you with some sort of need to turn a terrible tragedy involving poor safety protocols on a movie set into an excuse to attack Alec Baldwin. Show some respect for the dead, if you have separate issues with Alec Baldwin, you’re more than free to attack him all day long, there’s plenty of ground for it, but you don’t need to link a terrible tragedy that almost certainly had zero to do with Baldwin’s personal character or behavior with prior dramas he has been involved in with the lunatic fringes of right-wing society and various personal demons he’s battled. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1250 "2021-11-01T19:06:46Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > Hunter’s politics enter into it because he is just one among a giant avalanche of asshole right-wingers who have gleefully thrown aside taste and decorum as they leap for the opportunity to take cheap shots at Baldwin’s history of anger issues, despite their total irrelevance in this matter. That Hunter himself would do this is especially egregious, because as a former film critic you would think he has the knowledge and connections to represent the matter fairly and accurately, instead of joining the aforementioned avalanche of assholes. I think part of the reason it’s so gross is Baldwin does not really have one of the most stellar reputations to begin with, if you just wanted to bash Alec Baldwin all day long, you have a lot of ground to do it. **Without turning a terrible tragedy in which a woman died, leaving behind a husband and young child** , into a shitty meme to drive attention to assholes like Tucker Carlson. ---
**Author:** ![GreysonCarlisle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@GreysonCarlisle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreysonCarlisle)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1251 "2021-11-01T19:08:01Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > We do have a dead camera man. Halyna Hutchins was operating the camera. The regular crew had walked out. I don’t believe she was operating the camera. > [@](#): > > Instead, the B-camera operator was on a dolly with a monitor, checking out the potential shots. Hutchins was also looking at the monitor from over the operator’s shoulder, as was the movie’s director, Joel Souza, who was crouching just behind her. > > [Source](https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/business/story/2021-10-22/alec-baldwin-rust-camera-crew-walked-off-set) ---
**Author:** ![Stephe96](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Stephe96](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stephe96)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1252 "2021-11-01T19:15:01Z")
Uh. How did Trump get into this? Also, I’ve been defending Baldwin in this thread, and I thought he came off well while speaking to those TMZ reporters. I have no idea what happened, you have no idea what happened, and Stephen Hunter has no idea what happened. We’re all speculating. I don’t think you need to take it so personally. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1253 "2021-11-01T19:21:26Z")
> [@GreysonCarlisle](#): > > I don’t believe she was operating the camera. Correct – the camera operator’s name is Reid Russell. Last week, Russell submitted an affidavit of his account to investigators. > **[Alec Baldwin was pointing gun at camera in Rust rehearsal, legal papers say](https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-59035483)** > > Legal papers shed light on what happened when actor Alec Baldwin fired a gun with tragic results. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1254 "2021-11-01T19:31:04Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > It’s frankly entirely possible Baldwin did not “accidentally” fan the gun, but actually cocked it and then accidentally pulled the trigger– According to the article linked by **Darren\_Garrison** , Baldwin reportedly said, “So, I guess I’m gonna take this out, pull it and go, ‘Bang!’”, so that is almost certainly what happened. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1255 "2021-11-01T19:39:26Z")
It’s a garbage article whose gross speculations based entirely on Baldwin’s character and background were left behind within the first hundred posts of this thread. Do better. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1256 "2021-11-01T19:42:09Z")
And it’s probably the least stinky pile of horseshit in the entire Powerline blog site — it’s just another insurrection porn site providing right wing jack-off material for the MAGA crowd. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1257 "2021-11-01T19:50:56Z")
Y’know, looking at this… > [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > > [@Stephen Hunter](#): > > > > One must further wonder if his reputed anger issues or his CEO status as producer precluded some old-salt type from giving him a basic rundown on what he could or could not do or what he should never do with the pistol. > > (…) The idea that “one has to wonder” if Baldwin’s “anger problems” means he refused any offers for help learning how to use the firearm is entirely scurrilous and without evidence at all. … ISTM Hunter writes as someone somehow unaware of the information we have so far that _there were **no** “old salt types”_ around for this. It is reported that even from the start, experienced armorers/prop masters refused to work for such a cheap sloppy operation. If anything the slightly more fair question should have been formulated as to whether Baldwin’s (and Hall’s – he also seems unaware of _Halls’_ “cold gun” call) standing and reputations precluded _inexperienced, not well-established types_ from doing their jobs. Hunter sounds to me as coming from a place where you’d find someone who’d describe _himself_ as an “acknowleged” expert. So of course he can’t simply stop at providing his great explanation of how this firearm lent itself to things going wrong in the hands of someone not properly trained, and how that could have translated on set, but then feels duty bound to give us an implicit parenthetical lecture on the Four Rules, and raises the suprefluous question about whether a person’s temperament precluded someone educating him on the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1258 "2021-11-01T20:22:25Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > That article is horseshit. So Baldwin IS a western action shooter and is familiar with how to handle guns? I’m truly confused here. I’ve never allowed someone to hand me a gun and declare it empty or chambered. I make them show me. ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1259 "2021-11-01T20:31:37Z")
The production staff reportedly mocked the camera crew’s request for hotel rooms near the filming site, according to the LA Times. > **['Rust' production staff ordered custom T-shirts mocking camera-crew requests...](https://news.yahoo.com/rust-production-staff-ordered-custom-113203197.html)** > > The six-person camera crew on the set of "Rust" left the production in protest of poor working conditions and were replaced by nonunion members. > [@](#): > > “So much so that someone on the production staff had ordered custom black long-sleeve T-shirts, with ‘Error 404: Housing Not Found’ and ‘ABQ is an hour away’ printed on them,” the LA Times added, adding that it had seen a photo of the shirts. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1260 "2021-11-01T20:35:34Z")
So now we know. It wasn’t the _gun_ that was cold. It was shit like this. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1261 "2021-11-01T20:36:25Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > So Baldwin IS a western action shooter and is familiar with how to handle guns? I’m truly confused here. If you examine your screen closely, you will discover a scroll bar that allows you to travel back up and read the couple of hundred additional words I wrote which will alleviate your confusion regarding my opinion of the article. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1262 "2021-11-01T20:51:37Z")
I wouldn’t hold your breath on that. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1263 "2021-11-01T20:57:37Z")
Hope springs eternal. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1264 "2021-11-01T22:53:42Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > If you examine your screen closely, you will discover a scroll bar that allows you to travel back up and read the couple of hundred additional words I wrote which will alleviate your confusion regarding my opinion of the article. I didn’t ask your opinion of the article or your ability to be snarky. I asked your opinion of Baldwin regarding his expertise as a western action shooter and his familiarity in handling guns. ---
**Author:** ![nelliebly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nelliebly/32/5422_2.png) [@nelliebly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nelliebly)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2021, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1265 "2021-11-01T23:53:21Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > But would it have made any difference? Yes. The point is that protocol dictates that the gun should have been empty when Baldwin demonstrated the cross-draw. It should have been loaded with dummy bullets by the armorer just before the camera rolled. It should then have been cross-checked by the AD. None of those things happened. I’m assuming the armorer did not load the live round(s) in the gun. As an armorer, she can tell the difference between blanks, dummies, and live ammo. I don’t think there’s reason to suspect she deliberately put the live rounds in the gun. 1. If the gun had been empty during Baldwin’s demo cross-draw, the live round would not have been fired at that time. 2. If Gutierrez had followed protocol and inserted blanks or dummies into the gun just before the camera rolled, the live round would not have been fired when the camera rolled. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2021, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1266 "2021-11-02T00:04:01Z")
> [@Stephe96](#): > > Whatever his intentions, I think we can safely assume the gun was pointed at the camera operator and not the camera. Were that the case, the only tragedy here would be a big bullet hole in an expensive camera. I mean… have you ever fired a handgun yourself? Do you know about recoil? Or how slight movements of the hand can have a significant effect on where the gun is pointed when it actually discharges as opposed to where it was moments before? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=62) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=64)