# Alec Baldwin \[accidentally\] Kills Crew Member with Prop Gun {2021-10-21} **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** breaking-news\ **Created:** [October 22, 2021, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960 "2021-10-22T02:38:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 68
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1349 "2021-11-04T16:22:10Z")
> [@cochrane](#): > > Related to this, Dwayne “The Rock” Johnson has announced that real guns will be banned from all future movies made by his production company, Seven Bucks Productions. > > [Dwayne Johnson announces his productions will only use rubber guns after Rust shooting | The Week](https://theweek.com/news/1006782/dwayne-johnson-announces-his-productions-will-only-use-rubber-guns-after-rust-shooting) The ABC series The Rookie announced the same thing last month. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1350 "2021-11-04T16:38:54Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > Well it wasn’t a loaded gun right? Except it was. The pointing of the gun was reasonable provided the gun had been rendered safe by the protocols in use on movie sets. Those protocols broke down and this is the result. Your aerobatic analogy applies. They don’t just suspend FAA flight rules. Aerobatic performances come with their own set of rules. They’re given specific envelopes and rules to fly by. to say the protocols broke down in this case is stretching it. It doesn’t look like they existed at all. It’s not that hard to hand someone an empty gun, demonstrate it’s empty and cleared, and then display only the rounds to be loaded into it in full view of the actor and the crew. It’s 30 seconds of effort. ---
**Author:** ![Sam\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Sam\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sam_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1351 "2021-11-04T16:42:25Z")
Recoil is faked by actors now (or more likely, ignored). No gunshots without real bullets will have recoil. Not even blanks. Recoil requires a mass to be launched from the barrel at high speed. The biggest problem with fake guns is cycling the action, ejecting spent casings, etc. That stuff is pretty hard to CGI, especially in a low budget film. I expect the Rock’s gun scenes to look significantly worse if they userubber guns only. And I guess no scenes of the guns being loaded, magazines changed, etc. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1352 "2021-11-04T16:51:17Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > The biggest problem with fake guns is cycling the action, ejecting spent casings, etc. That stuff is pretty hard to CGI, especially in a low budget film. You’re right about budget constraints for many films. Otherwise, for blockbusters and such … the “_hard to CGI_” hurdle is likely surmountable. There was a time recently when natural movement of fur/hair was hard to CGI – in 2021, it’s routine and accessible even to streaming-television productions. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1353 "2021-11-04T16:59:19Z")
A larger question is why are guns so prominent in film and TV stories? They certainly don’t play such a prominent role in real life stories of interest. It’s almost like firearms are a crutch for creating conflict in onscreen storytelling. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1354 "2021-11-04T17:02:07Z")
Wars and fighting have always captivated the mindset in storytelling. See: Epic of Gilgamesh Many Roman / Greek myths Homer’s Odyssey / Iliad Many Germanic myths Many Roman and Greek plays Most of Shakespeare’s plays have some level of fighting or violence in them etc etc ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1355 "2021-11-04T17:02:10Z")
> [@Sam\_Stone](#): > > And I guess no scenes of the guns being loaded, magazines changed, etc. Why? Just use a prop with a solid piece of material for the muzzle. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1356 "2021-11-04T17:02:50Z")
Zero firearms in any of those examples. ---
**Author:** ![Pork\_Rind](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pork_rind/32/111_2.png) [@Pork\_Rind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pork_Rind)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1357 "2021-11-04T17:11:08Z")
That’s entirely missing the point of @Martin_Hyde’s post. No doubt that stories of war and fighting from before the invention of gunpowder don’t include firearms. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1358 "2021-11-04T17:14:36Z")
Basically, not using fireable weapons (including both inert props and/ir a device that cycles the action and creates a flash or puff without anything travelling down a barrel) is a good alternative — but the safety protocol becomes of course ensuring that no fireable gun is anywhere near. So you still have to have someone who knows inspect the thing and verify it IS the nonfiring prop. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1359 "2021-11-04T17:18:08Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > A larger question is why are guns so prominent in film and TV stories? They certainly don’t play such a prominent role in real life stories of interest. It’s almost like firearms are a crutch for creating conflict in onscreen storytelling. Maybe because we live real life stories and don’t want to watch it for entertainment? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1360 "2021-11-04T17:22:18Z")
I wonder if that’s because Achilles didn’t have access to firearms? Also guns/cannons are mentioned in Shakespeare–they had been around for a couple hundred years by his time. ---
**Author:** ![Folly](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/folly/32/3219_2.png) [@Folly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Folly)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1361 "2021-11-04T17:48:36Z")
> [@](#): > > “We’re going to switch over to rubber guns, and we’re going to take care of it in post,” Johnson told Variety. “We’re not going to worry about the dollars; we won’t worry about what it costs.” Future news story: “Of course I didn’t check to see if it was loaded. I thought it was just a heavy, rubber gun. There aren’t supposed to be any real guns on the set!” ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1362 "2021-11-04T17:49:12Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Maybe because we live real life stories and don’t want to watch it for entertainment? I quipped once at a Con, “Nobody wants to read _Conan the Accountant_ where the chief conflict is whether to wear black or brown shoes to work today.” ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1363 "2021-11-04T17:57:01Z")
And we _do_ make quite many dramatic and comedic film/TV works that do not involve any sort of armed violence. _But_ the kind of conflict that involves at the very least punching the bad guys in the face, is easier to sell to the international market. Even more so if something blows up. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1364 "2021-11-04T18:01:09Z")
> [@DesertDog](#): > > I quipped once at a Con, “Nobody wants to read _Conan the Accountant_ where the chief conflict is whether to wear black or brown shoes to work today.” _Tangent:_ Though the “_Crush your enemies …_” scene could be pretty funny in that milieu. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1365 "2021-11-04T18:21:29Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I wonder if it’s possible for any of the unions to get together, or for someone to start a fund, to provide for CGI firearms for low budget films. > > It sounds like safe real firearms are, understandably, a lot of work and now we know they are far from foolproof. Animated firearms are completely safe but expensive. > > Now we’re in a time where phone manufacturers are promoting the ability to shoot actual films on you phone. I shudder to think what amateurs are going to be doing regarding firearms. It would be cool if there was an affordable way to get those SFX into smaller budget films. Re-stating this from a couple weeks ago. Maybe Johnson will spearhead a way to get CGI firearms into lower budget productions. ---
**Author:** ![filmore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7993a0/32.png) [@filmore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmore)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1366 "2021-11-04T18:29:56Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Maybe Johnson will spearhead a way to get CGI firearms into lower budget productions. If the guns can extend something green out of the barrel, it would make it pretty easy to add CGI. Similar to those prank guns that shoot a “BANG!” flag. When the actor presses the trigger, a green cylinder quickly extends and retracts that has motion capture dots on it. They should be able to add a CGI barrel flash pretty easily. Some of the CGI barrel flashes do look a little cheezy since they look like the computer is just trying to figure out the placement on its own. But if high-quality, CGI-ready prop guns become the norm, I would guess they will get pretty good at it. ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1367 "2021-11-04T18:30:24Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I wonder if that’s because Achilles didn’t have access to firearms? Probably a good thing Achilles didn’t have access to firearms, as he’d probably shoot himself in the foot. ---
**Author:** ![Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slow_moving_vehicle/32/291_2.png) [@Slow\_Moving\_Vehicle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slow_Moving_Vehicle)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2021, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960/1368 "2021-11-04T18:35:27Z")
> [@bordelond](#): > > > [@DesertDog](#): > > > > I quipped once at a Con, “Nobody wants to read _Conan the Accountant_ where the chief conflict is whether to wear black or brown shoes to work today.” > > _Tangent:_ > > Though the “_Crush your enemies …_” scene could be pretty funny in that milieu Further tangent: one of Terry Pratchett’s _Discworld_ novels has a group of teenage vampires, who like to stay up all day, give themselves weird names like “Nigel” and “Stacey”, and pretend to be accountants and real estate brokers. One _claims_ to drink wine, but it’s really just blood in a wineglass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=67) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/alec-baldwin-accidentally-kills-crew-member-with-prop-gun-2021-10-21/952960.md?page=69)